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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Red 16gb cf problem!

Deanan said:
Replied to your email before I saw this...

There's something causing problems in your setup or possibly a faulty batch of readers but am curious as to what other info you get from testing.
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Hi Deanan

I posted, a reduced version of my email to you, here so as to perhaps gather a little more support in my testing (via others reporting their findings). I will be back to testing tomorrow so I may have further info then.

I'm happy to test readers (pro 800 versions from Sandisk or Lexar) from any Redusers in London who has NO problems. I suspect I can produce a fail with any reader under certain circumstance. I do hope not and I simply just have 4 bad readers..

Perhaps a 3rd party could step in in the meantime with a temp solution. I imagine if somebody appropriately skilled pulled apart a Lexar reader and remade with both a better heat-sink and the firewire cable hardwired at the reader we might all be a bit better off. The most important element would be the mounting and releasing mechanism for the cards. It should not just encourage but guarantee a absolutely perfect physical mating of the reader and card (non do this at the moment).

kind regards

Michael L
 
K.Rexach said:
The cards themselves and also the cameras are extremely reliable. The main issue was when downloading the data from the cards.

For that I do not think there is a 100% reliable solution in all situations that one can trust it without a person checking it and performing backups (there rarely is for anything).

However, to minimize any issues, I would get the lexar RW034-001 (Professional UDMA fw800 CF reader), fix the cable both on the reader and the computer with a bit of gaffer tape, keep things cool and use R3D DM. Also, on the second (backup) download, eject card, insert and copy again to a separate drive (or better yet another computer or external drive), yo can do that without using R3D DM to save time.
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Thank you. This is helpful. What about cables? is the one Lexar supplies up to the job, or are different cables recommended?
 
Michael Lindsay said:
I'm very interested in a very knowledgeable answer to this question.

M
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If you're seeing quality problems on your readers, I'd recommend not using a reader constantly. Try using a couple of readers and rotating between readers.

Make sure the cables are good, connection to the computer and reader are secure (we've heard of problems where the readers dangling from the firewire cable).

Keep the readers away from heat.

As for workflow, I recommend backing up through two different paths (two computers, readers, cables all unique to each path). If you also checksum both paths, then you'll quickly if a reader is having problems.
 
Deanan said:
As for workflow, I recommend backing up through two different paths (two computers, readers, cables all unique to each path). If you also checksum both paths, then you'll quickly if a reader is having problems.
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Really Deanan? Is the hardware for reading 16GB CF cards that flakey? You're making it sound like something I don't want to touch with a 10-foot pole! I understand the need for redundancy, and I get the heat issue. But surely there must be some hardware that you guys have experience with that has proven to be reliable?
 
D Fuller said:
Really Deanan? Is the hardware for reading 16GB CF cards that flakey? You're making it sound like something I don't want to touch with a 10-foot pole!
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Not at all. In the last two years and thousands of cameras, a ton of footage has been reliably offloaded via CF. The suggestions are for those that are having problems and doesn't mean that it's something happening all the time. The nature of the beast is that you only hear about problems and never the thousand other people where it's fine.
 
Deanan said:
Not at all. In the last two years and thousands of cameras, a ton of footage has been reliably offloaded via CF. The suggestions are for those that are having problems and doesn't mean that it's something happening all the time. The nature of the beast is that you only hear about problems and never the thousand other people where it's fine.
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So are you suggesting duplicate setups just for troubleshooting? (That makes a lot of sense.) Or do you really recommend two complete DIT stations for reliable offloading of 16 GB cards? I hope it's the former; if I have to wait for two downloads to compare two checksums before I know I can move on, it just won't work.

On related notes:
Is any information available on the release date for the RED STATION?
And have you folks at RED had any opportunity to test the new Sonnet Qio™ Universal Digital Video Media Reader with RED 16GB CF media? I know it's not shipping yet, but it's slated for this month, and it seems like a potentially interesting solution.
 
D Fuller said:
So are you suggesting duplicate setups just for troubleshooting? (That makes a lot of sense.) Or do you really recommend two complete DIT stations for reliable offloading of 16 GB cards? I hope it's the former; if I have to wait for two downloads to compare two checksums before I know I can move on, it just won't work.

On related notes:
Is any information available on the release date for the RED STATION?
And have you folks at RED had any opportunity to test the new Sonnet Qio™ Universal Digital Video Media Reader with RED 16GB CF media? I know it's not shipping yet, but it's slated for this month, and it seems like a potentially interesting solution.
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Yes for troubleshooting but also if you're in a position where you have to be double sure about data before deleting the master (ie. for a high budget feature).

This isn't strictly related 16GB cards or a specific type of media. Before I was at RED, I would do the exactly the same thing when under demanding situations. David Fincher used a similar double offload workflow for Benjamin Button and Zodiac (both Viper) to offload the S2 Dmags to two separate LTO drives. It's simply that when your data is valuable, it's smart to duplicate data using two different paths as much as possible.
I would recommend it even with P2, S-two, Codex, SxS, Phantom, S2, etc.

I've seen problems with firewire drives, usb drives, cables, bad computers, bad cables, dodgy ports on computers, bad memory in computers, power problems, etc. Doubling up the paths is like insurance.

By adding checksums into the mix, if something does go wrong, you know it pretty quickly.
 
Deanan said:
If you're seeing quality problems on your readers, I'd recommend not using a reader constantly. Try using a couple of readers and rotating between readers.

Make sure the cables are good, connection to the computer and reader are secure (we've heard of problems where the readers dangling from the firewire cable).

Keep the readers away from heat.

As for workflow, I recommend backing up through two different paths (two computers, readers, cables all unique to each path). If you also checksum both paths, then you'll quickly if a reader is having problems.
Click to expand...

Hi Deanan

Thanks again for the advice.

I will however not be using CF cards at all until I am 100% sure I have a bullet proof downloading setup.

kind regards

Michael
 
Michael Lindsay said:
Hi Deanan

Thanks again for the advice.

I will however not be using CF cards at all until I am 100% sure I have a bullet proof downloading setup.

kind regards

Michael
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and you now have that with the Red Drives?

We exclusively use 16GB CF Cards and (knock wood) no issues. We use 2 Lexar Card Readers and alternate them as they DO get hot.

Contrarily, we had too many problems with drives. Way too sensitive and lost footy to easily. Not all the time, but enough to want to abandon drives.

Go figure :)
 
Everyone's experiences will vary because there are a lot of variables at play. There is no one "appliance" available that guarantees a bulletproof setup. I've done many large commercials where we use the drives primarily. Shoots with CF cards mostly fine with a few hiccups with the 16GB cards, but taking recommended steps to avoid those issues. The key is to test. Test the media in advance. Make sure your data tech can test their setup with that media in advance if possible. Have backups of as much of the hardware as you can on set so that if something goes bad during the shoot, you can swap in another to isolate the problem. If you simply want to carry your own laptop with a single reader, and a FW cable that's very risky. If that reader goes bad during the shoot (it can happen) then you would be stuck with no alternative.

Should all of this stuff work as advertised? Sure, except that getting back to my appliance comment, when something is built with the purpose of doing one thing and doing it well, say a refrigerator for example, you plug it in, let it get to the right temp, load your food and for the most part it does its thing. It's built to do that one thing. With computers and specifically computers that need to interact with the video world, we are introducing all kinds of variables. All kinds of devices that can have drivers and firmware, and we're throwing all of this stuff together and usually it works relatively well, considering it wasn't all built at the same time with one sole purpose. But every once and a while, something goes wrong, things don't cooperate, a card reader goes bad or maybe it just doesn't play nice with that computer or that operating system. Maybe the computer has corrupted directories, maybe there are electrical problems causing glitches. There are a lot of things to keep track of. Fortunately, there are products out there and more on the way that are trying to emulate more of the appliance mentality. Systems setup to do one thing really well, in this case backup footage. These systems may be a better option for some folks than trying to put together various components and hoping they all work flawlessly together.

Data management is a vital part of this new file based acquisition process. I firmly believe that it should be treated like negative would be treated on a film set. It can't be an afterthought. It has to be taken seriously and every frame should count. A no frames left behind mentality should be in place. Because if key frames are lost, the whole shoot could be for not and that costs money. I know we all get that, but still a lot of shoots are going about data management haphazardly and post houses are getting bad frames and so not everyone in the industry is getting it.

So, my point is I'm all for bulletproof. But I think right now the way to get it is to make sure you have yourself covered in the event that the components you're using for backups go south. It will minimize the downtime if something should happen unexpectedly.
 
Tim Whitcomb said:
and you now have that with the Red Drives?

We exclusively use 16GB CF Cards and (knock wood) no issues. We use 2 Lexar Card Readers and alternate them as they DO get hot.

Contrarily, we had too many problems with drives. Way too sensitive and lost footy to easily. Not all the time, but enough to want to abandon drives.

Go figure :)
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The problems is with figuring ;-) And I'm trying!

What problems have you had with drives? Sata errors.. post lockups?

I would love to move exclusively to cards as they offer some fine advantages..

My problem is a compound problem. There is the problem I'm having with readers (that I am confident that I can replicate with most readers.. I will test more later this week extending the variables and report back) and that simply the guys I have been using as DWs have simply not picked up on problems. (despite having a process asked of them that should have aided them picking up on it). I need the whole thing to be easy to get right!

I worry that I simply don't have the right people (or right jobs) to to do a double back up with completely separate paths (I can easily make the hardware resources available). Even though we have a 'spare' laptop on set I'd prefer back ups to be done with one laptop (unless it is a 3 camera shoot for example) as it is simply and less confusing for the data wrangler.

The Sonnet Qio™ looked promising as I would be able to plug a Esata drive into it and back up 2 cards at once. If this was possible at speed then maybe the 2 path solution would be possible (but with only one laptop)

kind regards

Michael

PS Lets hope the Red solution is great!
 
I use one laptop and two separate readers/cables. I then make two backups to two different drives. Works great. Only time I had checksum mismatches was from a damaged fw800 cable to a red drive.

Also make sure nothing is bus powered. bus power is evil. buy the powerless fw 800 cables.

double backups are critical because it's easy to drop or lose your only backup.

backing up goes super fast with the 16GB cards. faster than backing up from hard disk to hard disk.
 
How much is your shot worth?

How much is your shot worth?

Deanan said:
I've seen problems with firewire drives, usb drives, cables, bad computers, bad cables, dodgy ports on computers, bad memory in computers, power problems, etc. Doubling up the paths is like insurance.
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Amen to that.

Insurance is a word producers understand. Use it a lot to justify multiple backups and extra hardware. I even triple check myself. It's not a matter of confidence. Its about being extra thorough and adding a layer of redundancy to the system. It may SYA.
 
Not to sound like a broken record here, but a hot CF reader or card seems to be the problem.
I encountered the same problem on a shoot that had two cameras and 8-minute takes!

But I still stand behind using cards - they create less bottlenecks for the DMT/DIT (no 60gb drive at lunch and wrap) and pose no threat of data loss when going handheld.

And Deanan is right - the footage we're handling is worth too much to not make two copies via checksums.

Thanks to everybody who posted - it's great to find answers for worried producers!!
 
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