Recording to CINEDECK

[martinnoweck]

Hello,

has anybody had positive results recording the RED SDI out to a CINEDECK EXTREME unit?

I did a test today connecting the RED SDI OUT to CINEDECK SDI IN, i get a live picture when i set the cinedeck to 720p, but when starting recording there is signal loss.

When I take the same cable and connect it to a Panasonic 17" monitor via HD-SDI (instead of the cinedeck) the picture is fine, no signal loss.

best wishes and kind regards,
Martin

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

This is most likely because there is an error in the timing of outputs from the R1's HD-SDI.

Most systems must have a "re-clocking" circuit in order to stabilize the Red's output.

Have you tried the HDMI output yet? Its just as flakey, but the Cinedeck might be able to handle that more readily.

As another option ... you could try putting the Cinedeck after some monitor or device that does re-clock the signal, like your Panasonic monitor. (Which should have both SDI in and out.)

If that works, but you don't want your Cinedeck to live on the directors monitor (and you shouldn't) there are devices that might set you straight. I'd have to poke around a bit but really anything that re-clocks the SDI input will work for you.

Of note, the Blackmagic Decklink Extreme 3D+ differs from the very slightly older 3D in that the 3D+ re-clocks HD-SDI signals, while the 3D does not.

Of course that assumes I got my diagnosis of your issue right ...

 

[Tom Gleeson]

nano

nano

Can't speak for the Cine deck but have used a Nanoflash recording the Red camera 720p HDSDI output with no timing problems

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Can't speak for the Cine deck but have used a Nanoflash recording the Red camera 720p HDSDI output with no timing problems

Different device- lots of devices don't reclock their inputs. Lots of devices do reclock. Some devices just record whatever mess comes down the HD-SDI. (Which is actually satisfactory to most Red users because we are just creating offline proxies, not deliverables.)

I think the SDI standard requires that outputs be clocked properly, but doesn't require re-clocking on inputs. Then again I only skimmed the standard.

I actually don't know of any other HD-SDI source (i.e. deck or camera) that has the timing issues Red One has. There must be others ... but even prosumer camcorders with HD-SDI tend to have better outputs.

I've actually never used a NanoFlash except at trade shows.

To be completely fair I've never encountered this with a Cinedeck - but I've also never used a Cinedeck with a Red One either. (Given the crappy R1 SDI out, I never saw the point- on Epic it should be a different issue.)

I ran into the problem for the first time on a set where I was shooting a R1, and a broadcast engineer was attaching an UpDownCross converter (from BMD) to fix the SDI out.

I have seen the exact problem described on a BMD Decklink Extreme 3D when I was doing my research into i/o cards for purchase, which is why I mentioned it though I now see I didn't get around to explaining it.

Here is a BMD rep on the issue (click through to read that discussion):

Hi,

This is incorrect. We support both 1.5 and 3 Gb/s SDI. The issue is the jitter output from the RED One is way out of SMPTE spec. However, the HD Extreme 3D+ card does have input reclockers and have been tested with the RED One camera's preview output.

I learned the details on reduser in this thread:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18632

In any case, I can't be sure that this is the case. The right way to test is to check with a signal analyzer. Those things can tell you all the stupid details of how a Red One's outputs suck. (The terrible outputs and the boot time are, for me, the biggest fails on the R1 camera. By comparison all the other issues are mere annoyance.)

The cheap way to check is to connect the Cinedeck to the monitors outputs and see if works there. If I recall the Panasonic re-clocks the inputs, and then passes the reclocked signal through so the output is clocked properly.

(You have to test the monitor too... at least one monitor I've used re-clocks for display, but passes through an unaltered signal, leaving you confused.)

If it works, then you can either call Cinedeck, because you may be able to turn on re-clocking in the Cinedeck somehow, or buy a SDI reclocking widget.

 

[martinnoweck]

thanks again for your replies ... i've continued the tests:

- if i connect the red hd-sdi to the panny hd-sdi in and use the pass-through for recording: error / signal loss on the cinedeck
- if i connect the red hd-sdi to a decimator or AJA downconverter and use the pass-through for recording: signal loss on the cinedeck
- if i connect an ex3 hd-sdi out to the cinedeck and switch the cinedeck to 1080i: no problem

we are in contact with cinedeck and i will update in case anyone is interested in further results.

best wishes and kind regards,
martin