Recording Stereo using Mono Shotgun Microphones

[Brian Iannone]

Let's say you were shooting a Planet Earth or Life-style nature documentary on an EPIC or Scarlet. You want to capture audio in stereo. Also, you wanted your microphone 'rig' to be portable and connected to the camera directly (perhaps on an articulating arm at the top). Would you use two shotgun microphones? If so, how would you arrange them (XY stereo pair?)?

 

[Alex Frausto]

Would work fine. The question is what kind of pickup pattern do you want to use?

Cardioid - directional, tight pickup pattern, compressed soundstage. I've used this setup for shooting auto races where the car audio is of main imprtance but you still need a bit of stereo separation.

Omni - wide pickup pattern, more natural sounding IMO. If you are trying to capture natures ambiance, this is what I'd use.

Just go with what sounds best to you.

 

[soren k jensen]

why not use an ms mic? - try it. love the sound but 90% of the time use a mono shotgun anyway and create stereo in post....

 

[Dave Blackham]

Let's say you were shooting a Planet Earth or Life-style nature documentary on an EPIC or Scarlet. You want to capture audio in stereo. Also, you wanted your microphone 'rig' to be portable and connected to the camera directly (perhaps on an articulating arm at the top). Would you use two shotgun microphones? If so, how would you arrange them (XY stereo pair?)?

1st rule of audio recording, the single worst place to put a mic is any where near the camera. Forget it, full stop, and especially for Wildlife.

If you want to use a stereo mic for features use an MS pair. Mostly (but not exclusivlly) use a Sennheiser MKH 60/30 pair, the stereo is not great but it will work for dialogue when near edge of frame. For Wildtrack's use a Sennheiser 40/30 pair which excels for wildtracks and is chalanging to get close for dialogue but the stereo is extreemly good. The Schoeps CMIT ccm40, 41 and Figure 8 capsule are as good as the Sennheiser mics.

For Planet Earth most audio was recorded wild or sourced from library, though the presenters links were recorded sync. I believe there was some specialist species and Wild track recording also.

 

[Brian Iannone]

For Wildtrack's use a Sennheiser 40/30 pair which excels for wildtracks and is chalanging to get close for dialogue but the stereo is extreemly good.

Thanks for the help! But, I don't know what that means... (I don't have very much experience with audio.) What exactly does a Sennheiser 40/30 pair mean? Is that a combination of two mics? If so, what specific microphones would you recommend? Also, is there a diagram or explanation that you'd recommend for describing how to arrange the mics? Also, what amount of money would you say should be spent on both microphones? I have no way to gauge what 'cheap' and what 'expensive' is for audio. For example, would you say I should spend $500, $1,000, $2,000, etc..? I've planned a budget of $1,000-$1,500 for microphones. Is that ridiculously little, will that do, or is that a lot?

Sorry for all the questions.... Thanks for the help! =)

 

[Tom Visser]

It would be impossible to record "stereo" with two shotgun mics. The best you could do would be two mono tracks that happen to sound good when played panned left and right or with some sort of post processing. Shotgun mics generally offer pretty poor integration with stereo rigs, such as M-S, due to the fact that they have a strong polar pattern. The MKH-60 / MKH-30 combo suggested above is probably the best recommendation for a shotgun based stereo combo, as the off axis response of the MKH-60 is more natural and is generally a "wider" shotgun than most other guns to begin with. The MKH-40 (cardioid) and MKH-30 (figure-8) is one of the best M-S stereo setups. M-S is great for production work in that you can always fall back to a mono signal if the stereo part does not work out well. The problem with X-Y when it comes to production work, is that both mics are pointed away from whatever the camera is shooting at. For ambiences, this is not a problem, but if you trying to record some sounds of the subject, there are better options. For smaller production, it would be pretty rare to see non-MS rigs being employed, due to the extra gear required, setup time, and expertise needed for each situation. M-S is safer, like I said, because it is centered around a mono mic pointed at your subject.

If you can't budget $4,000 on the low end, I'd personally be inclined to simply go mono and do stereo processing in post or utilize sound libraries (which I would sort of think as "cheating" for a nature doc IMO).

Sometimes what I find is a happy medium, is to use a shotgun or hyper-cardioid mic like I would do in any other non-ambience centric production gig and then throw up a pair of omni mics in spaced AB. AB gives you a wide, safe, stereo image that can sound really great when done properly. If it doesn't work out, you can simply ignore the AB tracks and just use the mono mic.

Google search M-S, X-Y, ORTF, AB, Blumlein, and Decca Tree to give yourself a primer on stereo techniques.

Given the expense of the sound equipment and the knowledge / experience required to record great sounding stereo stems that will do well in a typical post environment, consider hiring a well equipped Sound Mixer (person) who can provide this service if your looking at a specific production / shoot days. If your just trying to learn and experiment, I'd recommend going with omni AB first, as it is the most easy to get good sounding results and you can always repurpose the mics for plant mic situations and other production related applications. Mics good for X-Y, ORTF, M-S, etc... would probably be more typical in studio / music production. There are some excellent omnis that don't break the bank either.

 

[Dave Blackham]

Tom's reply above is all you need. Heres some reading. its general info on MS not specificaly film or Television.

http://emusician.com/mag/emusic_front_center/

http://www.uaudio.com/blog/mid-side-mic-recording/

neumann.com/download.php?download=lect0016.PDF

The benefit of MS audio is principally the M component collapses to perfect Mono ie you just remove the S component more often than not it will provide very usable audio from this mic alone. Also due to the configuration of the mics they match perfectly for a LR ie stereo output. The M can also be used for LCR also by adding in the Mid mic to create the Center stage.

If you can configure a short gun, cardioid and figure 8 mics in an MS array and swap between the short gun and the cardioid mic to matrix into stereo. The difference is stageringly different, the Cardioid figure 8 is so much better to derive stereo from.

My main point is do not put the mic on the camera, if its intended to be used for programme audio.

Re the mics Sennheiser MKH 60/30 referes to a manufacturer and models of mic as are the Schoeps mics. If you going to invest buy the best you can afford. My first MKH mics were purchased in 1989, they are still in daily use, after working on every continent on this planet in all manner of weather an environments, only one has ever been returned to the manufacturer after a Yak stood on it.

Im sorry if this is a high end approach but this is Red User, Red manufacturer the best cameras in the world and create the best images in the world, we need to ensure the audio is of equally high standard.

 

[David W. Jones]

I agree with Dave, you don't want to mount your mics on your camera!!!

Also don't forget to factor a field mixer with MS monitoring into your pricing equation.

 

[Brian Iannone]

Thank you everyone very much for the replies. You have all been incredibly helpful!

I agree with Dave, you don't want to mount your mics on your camera!!!

Also don't forget to factor a field mixer with MS monitoring into your pricing equation.

I have planned a separate budget for a field mixer and other miscellaneous audio accessories. Is there a specific field mixer anyone here would recommend?

 

[Dave Blackham]

Here's a couple of suggestions. Play around with mic placement and check out the best position for the mic irrespective of camera issues ie like getting in shot. Then work out the best compromise to get the sound you desire whilst accomodating the camera framing. What a good mic will do is improve the recording but no mic whatever it might be will perform well if its poorly positioned in the first palce. The other point is achieving appropriate perspecitve. Usualy a short gun mic such as an MKH60 sounds more or less correct if its right on the edge of a 16 x 9 frame. In the same way you might use a telephoto lens at a distance to achieve an object full frame or a wide angle lens very close the perspetive and look of the image will be radicaly different. Same is true of sound, the mic placement should reflect the shot and shot perspective. I am unsure about current audio mixes for Wildlife shows mentioned as many mixs seem to be pandering towards much too prominent foley effects and poor perspective with in the mix. Some sounds particularly water effects are obviously not in their correct setting and perspective is completely wrong often sounding as though its recorded in the preverbial builders bucket. Good audio recorded on location may fix this assuming of course theres a recordist on location which is not always the case.

<I have planned a separate budget for a field mixer and other miscellaneous audio accessories. Is there a specific field mixer anyone here would recommend ?>

I prefer SQN mixers which are very reliable. If you could find a Cooper then they sound great but are no longer made. Make sure you buy well, if you buy something of good quality it will last a long while. My mixers are 4 channel, if I were buying new Id have 5 channel. We always seem to have a stereo MS mic and 3 radio mics....

 

[Brian Iannone]

Thank you again for the enormous amount of info! =)

Another question... How should I be recording the audio? I would assume that I should use a portable field recorder, but what would you suggest?

 

[Dave Blackham]

Probably a portable recorder. Try a Sound Devices 744, your probably be better off with this than a mixer if you have work but will need both eventually.

http://www.sounddevices.com/products/744t.htm

You could use something like a Tascam DR 100 but you really need Timecode if you want to work with Film and TV. Also don't buy kit on a whim, buy it when you need it, stuff changes constantly particularly recorders. I think your safer with mics and a mixer from the point of view of kit going out of date.

The very best thing to invest in right now is your ears and listening to the best audio you can.

 

[Brian Iannone]

Okay, so what do you all think of this setup: a Sennheiser 40/30 MS pair with each mic connected to a Sound Devices 302 mixer. Both XLR outputs on the mixer are connected to each of the 3.5mm inputs on the front of a Scarlet using an XLR to Mini cable.

I don't really want to use an external recorder because I'm going to be shooting a lot of stock footage and I don't want to have to sync all the audio clips with the video.

So, what do you think of a setup like this?

 

[Tom Visser]

That sounds like a fabulous setup. I'm a little bit envious of you if that is your first serious audio kit. Most of us had to work our way through much lesser gear. The pinout on that wiring should be T(+)R(-)S(g), can't be sure based upon the link. I also hear that the Scarlet may not have balanced audio enabled with early revision firmware? Cabling issue aside, I can't think of a better selection of gear. You should probably budget for a proper Rycote stereo blimp and boom pole.

 

[Dave Blackham]

Great set up.

Im not keen on the 3.5 jacks on Scarlet but its what it had. I think id create an XLP to 3.5 adapter like the action production one so you could disconect from the camera. if you wanted a one cable solution you could make this an XLR 5 cable to camera but its a custom cable. Id also use high quality Gold plated 3.5mm jacks such as the neutrick right angle connectors. The contact area on the .35's is small so anything you can do to reduce issues sich as micro corrosion and dirt on the connector so much the better. Phantom volts on 3.5 is a killer as you then have the potential for 48V worth of crackle if you move them. Its inexpensive to build the leads.

The 30/40 set up is about the best stereo you can get. However you wont be able to get close enough for normal dialogue unless you use a 30/60 kit. There is a half way house with a 50/30 but Ive never thought it was either tight enough or wide enough but it is a great mic no the less.

The 302 is a good mixer but you will out grow is fairly soon. the 552 cost more but should last a few years but Id be you can find a used unit.

Also check on the Audio boards, Gearslutz etc you will find used MKH mics there.

 

[Dave Blackham]

I have no connection with these seller and not recomending them but just pointing to examples that might be worth considering.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sennheiser-...ultDomain_0&hash=item27c03a7976#ht_500wt_1413

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sennheiser-...ultDomain_0&hash=item3f10110645#ht_500wt_1413

The MKH 406 is also a very good mic from the previous range of Sennheiser mics. if you on a budget its a good cardioid to consider.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SENNHEISER-...ltDomain_0&hash=item5ae385c752#ht_2733wt_1398

 

[Brian Iannone]

That sounds like a fabulous setup. I'm a little bit envious of you if that is your first serious audio kit. Most of us had to work our way through much lesser gear. The pinout on that wiring should be T(+)R(-)S(g), can't be sure based upon the link. I also hear that the Scarlet may not have balanced audio enabled with early revision firmware? Cabling issue aside, I can't think of a better selection of gear. You should probably budget for a proper Rycote stereo blimp and boom pole.

Thanks for the advice! What do you think of this? I see there are multiple part numbers for the modular suspension unit, windshield and windjammer, however I have no idea what they mean...

 

[Brian Iannone]

Great set up.

Im not keen on the 3.5 jacks on Scarlet but its what it had. I think id create an XLP to 3.5 adapter like the action production one so you could disconect from the camera. if you wanted a one cable solution you could make this an XLR 5 cable to camera but its a custom cable. Id also use high quality Gold plated 3.5mm jacks such as the neutrick right angle connectors. The contact area on the .35's is small so anything you can do to reduce issues sich as micro corrosion and dirt on the connector so much the better. Phantom volts on 3.5 is a killer as you then have the potential for 48V worth of crackle if you move them. Its inexpensive to build the leads.

The 30/40 set up is about the best stereo you can get. However you wont be able to get close enough for normal dialogue unless you use a 30/60 kit. There is a half way house with a 50/30 but Ive never thought it was either tight enough or wide enough but it is a great mic no the less.

The 302 is a good mixer but you will out grow is fairly soon. the 552 cost more but should last a few years but Id be you can find a used unit.

Also check on the Audio boards, Gearslutz etc you will find used MKH mics there.

Can I use and adaptor like the Wooden Camera A-Box in between the mixer and the Scarlet? So, I'd have both XLR outputs from the mixer connected to box XLR inputs on the adaptor, and then both 3.5mm outputs from the adaptor into the two inputs on the Scarlet? Is that what you meant when you were referring to the action production thing?

Also, would anyone happen to have a preference on XLR cable manufacturers?

 

[Tom Visser]

I would just contact Remote Audio, who make the best camera breakaway cables in my opinion, and have them custom fashion you an extra tail that terminates to 3x mini stereo (one for return monitoring and two for balanced output). Regarding that Rycote, that's the right product. Talk to Rycote directly or a dealer to figure out the maze of size / configuration options.

 

[Elsie N]

I agree with Dave, you don't want to mount your mics on your camera!!!

This triggered a thought... if I have two different subjects miked with lavalieres, will it be possible to plug each receiver to one of the two ports on the Epic and record passable audio? I foresee a situation of doing a long shot where characters are moving and without the obligatory mixer, I would like to record directly to camera.