Recording a Voice from the Distance

[Joe Taylor]

I'm shooting a western film here in Nevada and currently troubleshooting two scenes shot recently. Both involve a character shot from a distance of 200 yards and about 50 yards and in both scenes the character is having a loud conversation with himself. Not necessarily shouting, just talking loud with a powerful voice.

Both scenes were shot in the same location, in the desert with two small mountain ranges on both sides about 1/4 mile apart. When speaking loud enough there is an echo that I'd like to take advantage of.

I'll of course re-record the audio with a shotgun mic but I'm working out what the best techniques are to do this in the field with little post processing. Since it is nearly dark in both scenes and we never see the actor's mouth, one option I've entertained was to re-record in a different location that has more prominent cliffs that are closer together and have a much better echo effect. I'd use matching shotguns mics, one for the actor who I will record closer to the mic, about 40 yards and another mic aimed at the most prominent cliff to capture the echo effect.

Would really like to hear from so more experienced audio field recordists who can offer some suggestions on making this endeavor sound as authentic as possible.

Many Thanks!

 

[George Willson]

"panoramic sound recorder" SOUND PANO would capture the most realistic sound field

"panoramic sound recorder" SOUND PANO would capture the most realistic sound field

Perhaps you could try a professional VR sound recorder, called Sound Pano which could really capture the most authentic sound field as our ears hear in the recording scenes. It happened to me that I came across in NAB 2017 three weeks ago.
It is said that based on Double Quad Binaural recording, which doesn't need post-prodution to reproduce the sound field as it was. What recorded is what ears in person hear. As we all know, Quad Binaural recording system can capture sound filed with
less port production than FOA recording method. The Double Quad Binaural recording can best capture sound filed in directions,distances and movements. Even reflections and diffraction are all included.
Also, it provides a standard gimbal for mounting your camera to achieve synchronization of surround sound with your footage without delay. I think it will suit your case. You can check it by its official website: http://www.scenessound.com/en/product/sound-pano.html

Hope that could help you! Happy recording!

 

[Joe Taylor]

Hello George, Binaural mic systems are indeed amazing and I'd love to work with one, just not in the budget right now. I'm hoping I can capture what I need with what I currently have. A humble Tascam DR-100 mk III and two Rode NTG-1's.

 

[Robert Hart]

Would an outdoors Decca Tree array be of any use? It is awkward for portability and wind muffs might be a difficulty. They are normally used in controlled indoor environments like large recording studios and rarely outdoors.


This clip is not representative of the environment you wish to record in but it is an ambient recording of an event using a Decca Tree comprised of three Rode NT2a mikes, the centre set to omni, split to left and right audio channels and each wing mike set to figure 8, one going to left audio channel and one to right audio channel. When the desk audio feed failed, I was left only with the ambience recording. The recording path was from the mikes into each of three input sockets on a Sound Devices SD302 mixer, then two outputs into the SI2K camera L and R audio channels.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7C3jSccwk8&feature=youtu.be

You might be able to substitute the centre omni mike for a shotgun directional on the subject and the wing mikes being NT2a in figure 8 as above.

I have also used Sony C74 directionals as wing mikes arranged so that the rear lobes in the pickup pattern also help form a rough and ready figure 8 pattern with the mikkes angles so that the inner portions of the rear lobe cones each faced a common centre point. That seemed to work acceptably.

There will be far better qualified people than I will make suggestions and I recommend you take their advice far more seriously than my comments.

 

[Joe Taylor]

Hello Robert. Really like the options the Decca offer. I also just purchased a RØDE NT4 condenser mic that I am going to try and work into the mix. Since these scenes are being observed by a character is drunk, poised and suffering fever dreams, having a sound with multiple sources mixed into carefully might be an interesting sound. Should be fun to work with.

The character watching all this is hiding in a shallow cove/pocket that offers investing sound possibilities too. Nearby is a larger cave that we might try setting the mics in as well.

 

[Todd T]

I would mic the actor (or discreetly place a shotgun near him) and concentrate on capturing his voice as clearly as possible, then recreate the echoes and effects in post according to how you observed them on location.

The farther away the mic is from the source, the more background and extraneous noises will make it into the recording.

 

[Elsie N]

While mid-side recording is usually meant for studio work, if I were expecting a still night shoot I might experiment with a mid-side setup. (vertical figure 8 pickup pattern with a cardioid or super cardioid mic placed very close to the top of the vertical mic horizontally, and pointed at the subject.)

One reason I would like this in the situation you describe is because it offers the opportunity to move the sound around in post and might offer an opportunity to enhance or tone down the echos you seek.

This is an old school approach and one I've not tried yet but intend to do so one day.

You can pick up a berhinger B-2 Pro mic with switchable figure 8, omni, and cardioid settings pretty cheap on ebay... or at least you used to. I bought mine some years ago and since it is switchable, I've gotten use out of it to accompany recording sound along with Rode NTG2s to give me back-up options.

As I recall, there are other old brands that offer the same options but can't recall their brand names at the moment. Seems like one was a Marshall or somesuch.

Found a link that explains it better:

Just checked on Amazon for the B-2 Pro... those things have gone up to around $150 bucks... even the used ones. I think I paid about half that back in the day.

 

[Marc Wielage]

Jesus, just slap a wireless on the guy. This is not rocket science. 90% of the episodic TV series these days just have hidden wireless mics on all the actors, then use a boom mic in addition on multitrack recorders and use whichever track sounds best. The trick is knowing what mic to use, where to put it, what transmitter to use, and how to adjust the levels and transmission for best results. There is no one technique -- it's a series of decisions based on experience.

The best way to solve issues like this is to hire good people in the very beginning, and then they can help you plan to make sure you have the best possible raw materials to work with for the edit and final mix. This can be done economically to a point.

 

[PatrickFaith]

Jesus, just slap a wireless on the guy. This is not rocket science. 90% of the episodic TV series these days just have hidden wireless mics on all the actors, then use a boom mic in addition on multitrack recorders and use whichever track sounds best. The trick is knowing what mic to use, where to put it, what transmitter to use, and how to adjust the levels and transmission for best results. There is no one technique -- it's a series of decisions based on experience.

The best way to solve issues like this is to hire good people in the very beginning, and then they can help you plan to make sure you have the best possible raw materials to work with for the edit and final mix. This can be done economically to a point.

One thing I've noticed on low budget is skimping on the dialog mixer. On low budget often the picture editor is also doing the dialog edit, but with that the editor normally doesn't have enough background to really mix the dialog. I.E. fairly simple thing for a dialog mixer is take a wireless omni mic, balance the eq on that with the ambient sound (i.e. caynon), then put some slap on that with something like pheonix reverb so it sounds natural. Dialog mixing is one of those weird things that is extremely hard to get right without a few years of experience, or if skipped by having a picture editor attempt the dialog mix the film just sounds TOTALLY low budget.

 

[Elsie N]

While I'm sure both you Marc and you Patrick could (and probably already have at one time or another) easily make your suggestions work, I think I can see where Joe is coming from.

That is, it takes skill, practice and experience to create just the right mix of a lapel mic to sound 40 to a hundred feet away... and then to mix that in with the computerized echo effect from an app. But doing it in situ on location should automatically mix those components in the proper measure, probably sounding better to the ear than those manufactured sounds via computers and apps.

If he gets it right, look at the post work he will have eliminated.

 

[Joe Taylor]

Hello Elsie, doing some research on your suggestion. Also checking out the berhinger B-2 mic. Many thanks!!

 

[Elsie N]

Hello Elsie, doing some research on your suggestion. Also checking out the berhinger B-2 mic. Many thanks!!

Hope it turns out I was of some help.

 

[Marc Wielage]

One thing I've noticed on low budget is skimping on the dialog mixer. On low budget often the picture editor is also doing the dialog edit, but with that the editor normally doesn't have enough background to really mix the dialog. I.E. fairly simple thing for a dialog mixer is take a wireless omni mic, balance the eq on that with the ambient sound (i.e. caynon), then put some slap on that with something like pheonix reverb so it sounds natural. Dialog mixing is one of those weird things that is extremely hard to get right without a few years of experience, or if skipped by having a picture editor attempt the dialog mix the film just sounds TOTALLY low budget.

That is mostly true, but generally the location sound mixer rarely uses any EQ except in unusual situations where there's a real problem to solve -- for example, a female voice that sounds a little harsh on a specific mic (which I've had happen once in awhile).

For recent Westerns that used wireless mics, I would point to Westworld as a good example -- but they used a combination of lavs and booms. Magnificent Seven also had a lot of wireless scenes. Saddle noise and wind noise are issues with actors on horseback, as is distance and range. In some cases, you may have no choice but to just record good reference audio to use for ADR later on. I had luck with a Western project a few years ago by hiding a small wireless in the cowboys hats, and that can work for scenes where the hats stay on.

Hello Elsie, doing some research on your suggestion. Also checking out the berhinger B-2 mic. Many thanks!!

My opinion is that very little that Behringer makes is good enough for what you're trying to do. I think Countryman, DPA, Sanken, and Tram all make very good lavalier mics for film that are intended for wireless use; Lectrosonics and Zaxcom both make good transmitters and receivers. A good sound rental company can get you a package at an affordable price, or you can hire a location sound mixer and have them use their own equipment.

 

[PatrickFaith]

That is mostly true, but generally the location sound mixer rarely uses any EQ except in unusual situations where there's a real problem to solve -- for example, a female voice that sounds a little harsh on a specific mic (which I've had happen once in awhile). .... I had luck with a Western project a few years ago by hiding a small wireless in the cowboys hats, and that can work for scenes where the hats stay on.

I did a shot recently with a ccm 41 in a hat (is like a micro cmit5u schoeps shotgun) and it did amazingly well even with serious noise. In post the ccm41 was able to eq/reverb into a echo rich water ambient sound scape with no problem.

 

[Joe Taylor]

That sounds interesting Patrick. I'd love to hear that since I'm going for a feverish dream like sound for this scene.

 

[Marc Wielage]

I did a shot recently with a ccm 41 in a hat (is like a micro cmit5u schoeps shotgun) and it did amazingly well even with serious noise. In post the ccm41 was able to eq/reverb into a echo rich water ambient sound scape with no problem.

Schoeps is a very serious mic with a serious price tag. They don't make any wireless lavs as far as I know, but their shotguns and supercardioids are among the best in the world.

That sounds interesting Patrick. I'd love to hear that since I'm going for a feverish dream like sound for this scene.

I think for that, you hire a good sound designer and do it all in post. This is not something that typically comes together on location -- there's too many variables like wind, airplane noise, the wrong kind of reverberation, performance problems, you name it. Reverb is one of those things that's better to add after the fact, when you can control the nature of the reverb and how intense (or mild) it is. Any good sound mixer/editor will have 20 different kinds of reverbs you can try, some of which are modeled on real-life reverb in actual locations.

Backwards reverb is a technique I've seen/heard used in fever dreams before, and it can be fairly effective.

 

[PatrickFaith]

That sounds interesting Patrick. I'd love to hear that since I'm going for a feverish dream like sound for this scene.

ccm 41 is a very small mic, just plug it into a zoom recorder and have it kept on the actor/horse. On pointing it, it can be as close as 5 inches from the actors mouth, most people prefer it pointing down and into the actors chest. Even hoof noises and cars can be automated out with simple levels since the s/n of the actor is so high due to the mic so close to his/her mouth. For highly noisy situations I don't like omni's, even the ones designed for wireless, these micro supercardiods (i.e. 41 capsule) have a super tight range.

Another approach, which I've seen David Lynch do, is just bring the remote sound cart (he uses a table) right into the on scene location and do an ADR type recording session with a shotgun mic right at the same spot the shot was done (with all the camera's turned off and the sound guy just sitting at a table 15 feet from the actor, it's almost like a foley mixer/recorder because he's also mixing at that location). This on location ADR I think is the cheapest to do and also best sounding, but requires some time and also someone that can do on location mixing.

 

[Joe Taylor]

I agree that these types of on-set ADR could be ideal as long as the on-set elements are controllable but it does require very skilled technicians working with the actors who are all on the same page and can do it quickly and efficiently. If not, all could be a big waste of time better spent in a ADR booth.

ccm 41 is a very small mic, just plug it into a zoom recorder and have it kept on the actor/horse. On pointing it, it can be as close as 5 inches from the actors mouth, most people prefer it pointing down and into the actors chest. Even hoof noises and cars can be automated out with simple levels since the s/n of the actor is so high due to the mic so close to his/her mouth. For highly noisy situations I don't like omni's, even the ones designed for wireless, these micro supercardiods (i.e. 41 capsule) have a super tight range.

Another approach, which I've seen David Lynch do, is just bring the remote sound cart (he uses a table) right into the on scene location and do an ADR type recording session with a shotgun mic right at the same spot the shot was done (with all the camera's turned off and the sound guy just sitting at a table 15 feet from the actor, it's almost like a foley mixer/recorder because he's also mixing at that location). This on location ADR I think is the cheapest to do and also best sounding, but requires some time and also someone that can do on location mixing.

 

[Elsie N]

ccm 41 is a very small mic, just plug it into a zoom recorder and have it kept on the actor/horse. On pointing it, it can be as close as 5 inches from the actors mouth, most people prefer it pointing down and into the actors chest. Even hoof noises and cars can be automated out with simple levels since the s/n of the actor is so high due to the mic so close to his/her mouth. For highly noisy situations I don't like omni's, even the ones designed for wireless, these micro supercardiods (i.e. 41 capsule) have a super tight range.

Another approach, which I've seen David Lynch do, is just bring the remote sound cart (he uses a table) right into the on scene location and do an ADR type recording session with a shotgun mic right at the same spot the shot was done (with all the camera's turned off and the sound guy just sitting at a table 15 feet from the actor, it's almost like a foley mixer/recorder because he's also mixing at that location). This on location ADR I think is the cheapest to do and also best sounding, but requires some time and also someone that can do on location mixing.

Glad to hear this has been done. I've been planning a scene where the dialog keeps on going while visuals are somewhere else. Planning to have the actor do the scene as if in front of the camera to get all the location ambiance that will be in the scene when the actor is actually on camera.

There's actually a little more to it than this, but I prefer to keep that under wraps. '-)

 

[George Willson]

Hello Joe! In fact, the omnidirectional binaural microphone is not very expensive as $4500 for professional VR film shooting, it can be used in various shooting scenes without a boom to collect surrounding sound for a wide range of types of films.
If you have interest in it , please leave me a message.