Record buttons tactile feedback on scarlet and epic

[Oliver Moereels]

When I do fastpaced run and gun stuff, I usually have a few shots of the floor, or I start the recording when I would like to end it. It's always the same thing, the rec button was pressed to start or stop, but not far enough or to fast or I don't know what.
Most of you know what I'm talking about.

I realize that the viewfinder and lcd both show if you're recording or not, but sometimes you have to focus on ten different things at once and you go in a sort of autopilot-mode that dictates: I pressed the button so it's running.
I have had this with Z1s and quite a lot with an EX1, to a lesser extent also with a dvx100.

The problem (to me) is that the record button gives you absolutely no feedback on wether it was pushed 'the right way'. Especially the EX1 is a nightmare. It doesn't have a button, it has a spunge.
I know RED will assemble something that puts all of these cams to shame, and I'll be among the crowd fighting to buy a fixed scarlet asap.

But I was wondering if the RED cams button has some form of tactile feedback. A click at a certain point or extra resistance at the end. Or a very short travel, that'll work to. Off course then the risk of starting stopping by accidentaly brushing the button increases.

How is that on the RED1?

Could be a lastminute adjustment idea for epic and scarlet if it's not allready there. If not, there's always the 5 million K camera next year off course. ;-)

 

[ericyoung]

I started an ergonomics thread a few days ago - didn't get much response

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=680424#post680424

 

[DCC Erickson]

Happens to me too (HMC150). Quite a pain in the ass. Been working hard on checking for the red dot and not just watching what I'm shooting.

 

[David J. Shuman]

I sympathize

I sympathize

I know what you guys mean, sometimes thinking you have the best shots at an event, only to get the bloopers, shots of walking, or carrying the camera. I now try very hard to look at the red rec. dot in the viewfinder, especially when shooting stereo with 2 cameras not genlocked. Used to be different with my super 16, as tyere was no doubt when filming!

 

[Leo Sardello]

Yup. I have to agree on this one. I’ve always felt that the “REC” function of the button should fell like a toggle switch and not just a button press. I’ve had issues with the double click on some cameras with a hairpin button where I was shaky and went from record to stop in the same “press” of the button. I feel the button should require a firm press to set it into and take it out of record, a toggle.

I like some of the functions of the half press; it makes a lot of sense for things like auto focus for stills. But I’ve always wished for a true two stage button that travels smooth to the point of resistance for half press and clicks over with the firm press to record. It’s just the way a multi-function button should work IMO. And I believe I’ve read that the EPIC has a multifunction REC button with the half press performing a verity of functions based on situation (for example to mark a frame during recording for easy identification later), but I could be wrong.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

RED ONE isn't bad on this account - definitely better than your handycams. You push halfway and then you feel the click.

At times, I have put a piece of sandpapered gaff tape on the REC button of my handycams - makes me really feel the thing.

 

[brian hanson]

RED ONE isn't bad on this account - definitely better than your handycams. You push halfway and then you feel the click.

At times, I have put a piece of sandpapered gaff tape on the REC button of my handycams - makes me really feel the thing.

going to disagree partially, one of my first comments in shooting the Red One was that there was a slight delay in recording from when i pressed record. It definitely takes a little getting used to. I hope this gets improved in the new cameras. No qualms with the actual button though.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

there was a slight delay in recording from when i pressed record.

???

not my experience...and I've owned two of these cameras.

the POST prompt can take awhile to go away and I've had it freeze on me a couple of times while posting clips, which has been frustrating on occasion, but I've never noticed a delay with my record button.

 

[David Battistella]

With the RED ONE, if you are attentive you will hear the fans stop running. That is a good indicator.

Perhaps RED can offer a software feature that allows you to alter teh size or type of RECORDING INDICATOR on screen. I would not suggest audio feedback on this, but it might be nice to have a flashing record or a larger RED button, or alter where the button appears on screen.

It could be right in the cross hairs if you wanted for example and you could perhaps move it around with the touchscreen controls.

I am not sure how difficult this would be to implement.

A tally light might be nice, not that we love those.

There are many ways to go about this.

How about clip duration auto detection?

If several short clips are recorded in a row, three or five or something, then the camera puts up a screen that says, "Hey, you just recorded clips of 1;24, 2;21, 0:15 and 0;11 frames, is this what you meant to be doing?"


David

 

[brian hanson]

hmm, maybe it was the rig, no cf cards.

 

[D Fuller]

How about clip duration auto detection?

If several short clips are recorded in a row, three or five or something, then the camera puts up a screen that says, "Hey, you just recorded clips of 1;24, 2;21, 0:15 and 0;11 frames, is this what you meant to be doing?"


David

Oh, please no! The last thing I need on a shoot is the camera second-guessing what I'm doing. It's a huge PIA when Microsoft Word does it, but it would be far worse in the pressure of a shoot. Let's have the camera assume that the operator knows what he/she is doing. If they don't, they'll learn soon enough.

 

[Oliver Moereels]

I know what you guys mean, sometimes thinking you have the best shots at an event, only to get the bloopers, shots of walking, or carrying the camera. I now try very hard to look at the red rec. dot in the viewfinder.

I never only get the bloopers. :tongue_smilie:
I usually spot it after the first one gone wrong, but yes sometimes you can have series of shots that turn out to be the 'inbetween' shots. And usually with the stuff you can't ask them to repeat. ;-)

Used to be different with my super 16, as there was no doubt when filming!

And its tapeless to!

Yup. I have to agree on this one. I’ve always felt that the “REC” function of the button should fell like a toggle switch and not just a button press.

I don't get it either. It's the single most important button on a camera. Why skimp on that?

And I believe I’ve read that the EPIC has a multifunction REC button with the half press performing a varity of functions based on situation (for example to mark a frame during recording for easy identification later), but I could be wrong.

I thought it would very un-RED not to have thought about this.
But then I thought it's probably better to ask and be sure than to think.
There are good ones out there for many years allready. I never had issues with betacams for instance.
Anyone that has info on Scarlet in this regard?

RED ONE isn't bad on this account - definitely better than your handycams.

I truly never ever doubted that for a second. :blush: I was just curious how they handelded it with the R1.

You push halfway and then you feel the click.

And now I know.

Going to disagree partially, one of my first comments in shooting the Red One was that there was a slight delay in recording from when I pressed record.

Define slight. A few frames, a second? If it's under 15 frames, I don't really care.
Try waiting on a Z1 coming out of standby. I don't know what it does with that tape, but it seems it needs to be recovered from a place far far away...

 

[Oliver Moereels]

With the RED ONE, if you are attentive you will hear the fans stop running. That is a good indicator.

I don't think that will work in an eventhall while 400 people are enjoying free drinks and food. R1 isn't used for this a lot offcourse, but Scarlet will be.

Perhaps RED can offer a software feature that allows you to alter teh size or type of RECORDING INDICATOR on screen. I would not suggest audio feedback on this, but it might be nice to have a flashing record or a larger RED button, or alter where the button appears on screen.

You might have misunderstood which button I ment. I was talking about the physical button you need to push, not the dot on the display while recording.
And the display should be as clutter-free as possible for determening framing, exposure and focus imo.
Selectable audio feedback might be usefull sometimes. But only if it's a very cheesy 80ies arcade sound.

A tally light might be nice, not that we love those.

Selectable tally, but someplace where it's actually useful, like on the lcd for instance.

How about clip duration auto detection? If several short clips are recorded in a row, three or five or something, then the camera puts up a screen that says, "Hey, you just recorded clips of 1;24, 2;21, 0:15 and 0;11 frames, is this what you meant to be doing?"


David

My camera should never question my authority ;-), and certainly shouldn't be asking me questions while I am trying to get enough shots of 4 different activities at once. If anything that makes things harder, not easier.

No, a foolproof button that lets you feel it has succesfully been pressed.
Can't be that hard, can it?

 

[Leo Sardello]

It’s not like you should have to grind your thumb into it to force it to click over. Pressing REC should be like feeling the funk… I mean, uhm, well.. should go like this…


THUMB on button>>>>>> half press>>>>Uh (Like power of one Uh, jump back kiss myself!) CLICK… oh yeah we recording now……..THUMB>>>Half---- screw that shot’s over CLICK………Oh yeah- I step back and kiss myself once more, hit me now!


That’s the way a real record button works. You should be James Brown and the band, the camera. A button like that needs no visual aid.

*may have one or two extra tonight*:cheers2:

 

[Stuart English]

REDCORD button

REDCORD button

EPIC has a multifunction REC button.

It does, this is to allow operation of AF and Mark modes, but the two physical positions are quite distinct.

The camera and / or REDmote can also provide an audible "beep" to confirm that you have entered / exited record.

Same comments apply to Scarlet.

 

[Michael Olsen]

Wouldn't it be interesting to connect a remote trigger to be used as the primary record button in critical situations with something like a covered toggle switch? I don't know the electronics well enough, but for the important things in life, these switches can be great.

]

The red cover flap would prevent accidental start and stop. Up would mean recording, down would mean standby. If it feels up, you are definitely recording - weapons hot. If it's down, you are definitely not recording.

 

[Oliver Moereels]

It does, this is to allow operation of AF and Mark modes, but the two physical positions are quite distinct.

The camera and / or REDmote can also provide an audible "beep" to confirm that you have entered / exited record.

Same comments apply to Scarlet.

Hi Stuart.
Thanks for the info.
It's nice we can use the button on the front and the side for something other than recording.
But what do you mean with physical positions? The fact there's one on the front and another on the side, or that i'ts a distinct feeling when pressed?

Leo you said that beautifully. That's how it should work.
So another question for Stuart: does it click?

 

[Oliver Moereels]

Wouldn't it be interesting to connect a remote trigger to be used as the primary record button in critical situations with something like a covered toggle switch?

If we're going down that road I want the back handles of a gatling gun.
Squeeze to shoot. Release to stop. Never fails.

Actually, combined with that NATO bar RED will be making and a little NATO tripod, that would be awesome.
Hugely impractical, but truly awesome. Probably best to disassemble if you're flying though...

 

[Stephen Strangways]

going to disagree partially, one of my first comments in shooting the Red One was that there was a slight delay in recording from when i pressed record.

The delay is really only milliseconds, so you're not missing anything you want to record, but when things are happening quickly in a run n' gun situation, it can be enough of a delay that I'll hit record, nothing will happen immediately, so I'll second guess if I actually hit it or not, and inevitably I'll hit it again, which will stop the recording a second after it begins! Then I have to wait for POST, take a deep breath to slow myself down, hit the record button, and wait for the REC indicator to come on... speaking of which, I also have the camera displaying edge code, because with tape cameras I got so used to using the sight of rec-run timecode numbers advancing as my indicator that I actually was rolling.

All in all, I think if RED can remove that barely perceptible between hitting the button and seeing that the camera is rolling, it will vastly improve the tactile impression of hitting the record button. You'd be amazed how much of the "feel" of the button is likely tied to visual and auditory feedback!

 

[Joe Schmitt]

Ahhh, the dreaded "Double Click." It's happened to me and every other news shooter. It was many years ago, but I'll never forget it. You've disabled every tally light you can, and taped over the ones you can't. I got a rough chewing out from a reporter, a severe one from my chief photog, followed by a certified one from the news director. Funny thing? The interview wasn't all that important, and the person being interviewed had plenty of time to re-do and it still aired on time. Haven't done it since. I've "accidentally" rolled (on purpose) many times, but no more double clicks.

ALWAYS check your tally before doing overhead or wide shots when you trust your gut, and can't see your viewfinder.

No matter what camera you use, Leo's right. "Jump back...(I'm rollin'. Now I can..)...Kiss ma'self...HHHAAAHH!

Careful doing Mr. Brown's dance though. Maybe your different, but it's not pretty when I do it.