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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Really?

I didn't read the original thread, but it would seem logical that lenses with very large image circles could be more prone to causing light to bounce off of shiny bits around the sensor.

There should be no shiny bits anywhere inside the lens mount. There are good reasons why the insides of lenses are black, and the space between the lens and the imaging device should be black as well.
 
Indeed, this is not a lens issue. This is a reflection, probably off the metal frame holding the sensor in place (I think its metal). It doesn't happen on the Red One because a different frame is used (and a smaller image circle). We tested with different lenses and other cameras, with the same setup for each (MX, Alexa and Epic). The streak flare (not lens flare) happened only on the Epic. We shot everything with a MB20. Both with hard matts and without. The hard matt helped but not always. RED is looking into this but lets try to keep the issue clear.
 
I agree with Bob -

it looks like good old fashioned scissor flare from light kicking off the edge of the sensor border or the back of a lens element - anodizing might address it although I'm sure Red have considered this. It can be addressed by matte box work but if, like me, your style uses heavy backlight and flares etc then it could add a layer of unpredictabilty to things. Might be nice, mightn't be your cup of Joe. Its all subjective.


Alternatively it might be some form of narcissus with the shinier sensor. In either event it would account for why different lenses produce different results - something like the Zeiss standards with the small exit port at the back (while portholing) might mean stray photons aren't roaming loose at the sensor surface - where as lenses with bigger exit apertures would admit more stray light. The curve of the rear element of the lens can also contribute to narcissus through refraction. Some better, some worse. This all used to occur when we were shooting film mind you. Goes around, comes around.
 
We recently got burned by this on a commercial shoot. This was the DOP's first shoot with the EPIC-M, and unfortunately, while he was impressed by the form factor and the IQ, the streak flare issue made his chosen lighting setup unsuitable even with excessive masking. He chose to go back to using the Alexa for his next job, quoting the flare issue as the reason. Which is really unfortunate, mind you.

While quite a few commenters here fend this off as a non issue, I really hope RED will look into this and offer a solution in due time.
 
Daniel Browning said:
But isn't it also an opinion on whether the problem is "huge" or not? Or if it makes one camera inferior to another? Personally, I don't think gate flare is a big deal at all, but if someone else has the opinion that it's the end of the world as we know it and the sole determinant of the inferiority of cameras, I guess they're entitled to it. I never noticed gate flare in films until I saw it in my own video camera. Then it seemed like every film had it. That's why I don't think it's a big deal. In my case it's not actually gate flare, but reflection from the back of the locked up mirror, but the result is the same.
Click to expand...

To be clear: What I am stating is that calling it (the gate flare on EPIC) a huge problem or calling EPIC inferior because of it's gate flare characteristic is an opinion.

David
 
Anders Holck said:
While quite a few commenters here fend this off as a non issue, I really hope RED will look into this and offer a solution in due time.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure it's a "non iissue" but we do know two things.

1. RED is looking at it.
2. Douglas Underdahl has bee ok'd to find a solution by using some kind of flock to "mask" the area.

This also came up at a very critical time when the production line is starting and a lot of cameras are due to be shipped.

RED is awarea and has stated they are "on it". I guess the productive thing to do is to continue to share stories, like you have done.
People have also posted stop gap solutions in the "other thread".

If someone in the NYC area can get an EPIC to Doug Underdahl then a solution could happen soon.

David


David
 
Let's just call the first batch of Epics the "JJ Abrams Special Edition Epics"

This problem could use a gate mask of the new nano NASA has just developed. http://www.nasa.gov/topics/technology/features/new-nano.html

But whatever the resolution may be.... I'm sure RED will surprise us with a better than expected fix.
 
to clarify, certain lenses allow light to pass into the gate area to expose the sensor differently. lenses that are kicking more light to the sides are going to amplify this, while lenses without as much stray light beams will not display this as much. as those that have read the entire conversation know, i am all for a "fix" to eliminate the phenomena. in the meantime, we do the best we can, and remember in a lot of these situations it is possible to do some simple post cleanup. if anybody gets into a bind i'd be happy to show you how.
 
Hi All,

Since the thread was deleted I'd like to say again: the Sony F3 has this issue too, in spates. I was just shooting today with it on black cyc and had to faff around to get rid of it. Not a massive problem as far as I'm concerned, different cameras have different issues.

I'd do a side by side but my Epic is still at Red getting it's power spike error sorted. *Ahem*

Ben
 
The thread was deleted?


Ouch.


David


We should all just shut the f up now.
 
Two totally different things.

But still.

Best to just wait to see what comes of this.

David
 
I still say its aggravated by lenses....

Older lenses flare more on digital than they would on a "film" camera cause of the Glass screen over the sensor reflecting light back towards the rear element. Newer lenses have better coatings to compensate.

Like using old Nikon glass on a DSLR. You get internal reflections. But modern lenses are properly coated.

I saw the origional video sample in question, it looked like lens flare to me. light does funny things at certain angles.
 
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