Reality Check! Miami Music Video Scene!

[Jacek Zakowicz]

crossover

crossover

In the spirit of cooperation and integration I made EOS mounts for Red Pro Primes: http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=42058
I think it's inevitable- VDSLRs are here to stay- they will bite the (low end) chunk of the industry. We all need to adapt-it's the key...

 

[chrislancaster]

thats insane... :shocked:

 

[Carlos Prio]

I shoot a low budget tomorrow with Travis, T-Pain and Lil Wayne and I insisted on Red!!! No red no Prio!!! Ballsy huh???

Like I have stated, the 5d/7d have revolutionized the game but I will not use them as A cams for anything that is destined for broadcast. What I really need out of my RED is a couple more stops & high speed at 4k and I am golden!!! Then follow that up with 16 bits and Red and I will rock into the next several years!!! But we need that Sh&t (sorry hanging out with rappers) right now!!!! As far as I am concerned Epic is the only thing that matters and diversifying resources to F around with Scarlett is a mistake. Red rocked it with the Red One and the cine form factor... stick with what works!!!! You ain't gonna win in the Canon game!!!!

I see the same trend in LA, Music Video directors choosing to shoot with the 5D / 7D.
Top music artists accepting the camera and its look and price point sealing the deal.

The light weight and easy of use seems to outweigh the RED quality for music videos.
I have also seen this in 2 movies, the 5D as a B camera and a 7D for a feature and 7D as a C camera on a television show.

It's also replaced my services for RED shoots on set so its challenging to keep music video work busy with some of my DP's and Directors.

Perhaps scarlet will replace Canons on set, I can only hope.

 

[chrislancaster]

did you really??

im talking about referring to yourself in 3rd person.

:nono:

 

[MichaelHalsell]

If cost of ownership is being factored a significant consideration, Canon seems to have their finger on the pulse. Quality of image aside for a moment, there is no competition in that price-point VDSL space. Nikon and Panasonic are in Canon's rear mirror.

Sure the Red, Scarlet and Epic will best any of the other offerings image-wise, but from a price-point perspective, Canon pretty much is driving down the HOV lane uncontested and frankly could probably care less about their pissy codec. Because in the face of it all, cameras are selling briskly, real and/or imaginary work is getting done. Wouldn't say their VDSL are category killers, but they are doing damage, until some else shuts them down.

The price of the body, lenses, and accessories don't require a congressional budgetary consideration. And yes within 6 months, a new Canon will be available with a slightly enhanced feature(s). And it again it will be affordable. Lather, rinse and repeat.

Our facility's standing mantra - "Is it billable?, Yea we'll take it."

 

[Greg Ephraim]

because its good enough.

the masses don't care to much about quality its quantity and how quick can i get it?

a younger generation has grown up on the web and all they know is instant gratification.

I think this whole younger generation of instant gratification is a big driving factor in the RED One as well....
although the instant gratification there includes quality

some videos calls for dslr, some don't....especially in music videos, any money saved can make a video better, it's really the idea that counts. and chances are, it's going to show up on the web anyways. and if MTV decides to play it (ha) they still are not accepting HD

 

[Carlos Prio]

yeah!!! it's like my kids that will never appreciate uncompressed music. MP3 is their hi-fi!!!

 

[chrislancaster]

yeah!!! it's like my kids that will never appreciate uncompressed music. MP3 is their hi-fi!!!

100% agreement


but my honest opinion is .. the internet will rule over TV easy.. and people have settled for 1080p (is not bad really)

as time goes on and speeds get faster and faster the consumer will then start to demand higher quality like 4k


it seems we are in the B&W of the internet ages and 4k is color

imho

 

[Carlos Prio]

4k, 5k, 6k along with extended dynamic range is all about acquisition and trying to match, mimic & one day surpass 35/70mm film.

1080p is more than a sufficient distribution format & I think it will serve us well into the future. The problem lies in compression and the throwing away (crushing) of vital color information... 480p, 720p and/or 1080p on youtube while better is still crap!!!

 

[Carlos Prio]

Refusing to shoot 7D!!! Red baby!!!

Refusing to shoot 7D!!! Red baby!!!

After being up for 22 hours T-Wayne shows up!!! Shot it Saturday night 4am!! I was twisted to say the least!!!

 

[lonny dill]

Success in Miami with Birger!

Success in Miami with Birger!

Yes, Miami is a great location! Kudos to Miami and a few others! If you are there and you production help, get together with Alan Degen from degenfilms.com and First Unit Productions. First Unit has a killer crew!

And lastly, thanks again to Birger for letting us continue to shoot with some of our favorite lenses from Canon.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

I just saw a video on Vimeo where Rodney Charters was talking about how they started using the 5D and the 1D as background plate cameras, then as B-cameras, now soon, as A-cameras. I own a Red, 7D & 5D. I push people to go Red but sometimes it just makes sense to go with Canon. Scarlet will change that but I wonder what Canon has up their sneaky sleeves as well. Times are a changing that's for sure. What I worry about most is what is going to happen once the Scarlet & Epic cameras are released? I think MMMOST productions in Los Angeles are going to opt for the Scarlet because it will be cheaper and cheaper to rent. This will force some Epic Owners to compete with those prices. How often are people going to want 100 fps 5k? I shoot slow mo very little in my work.. People are going to want the Scarlet S35 for peanuts, Red One will be put into a shoebox and the Epic will be reserved for those with great negotiation skills and/or demanding projects. But really.. It's not about the gear, right? You don't get hired for your gear unless you're a rental house. People are hiring you because of your talent and your ability to work well with others. So, play your cards safe, don't just look at tomorrow. Look at 5 years from now and picture where you want to be. At the end of the day, it's not the camera, it's the work.

The Epic has many more advantages. The Scarlet has (when it will exist, which is not now) a 2/3 sensor, NOT 35 like RED/Epic.

People do care about flashing moire, do care about weirdly large skin pores and wrinkles appearing on their talent, and this is the joy of shooting on a DSLR. I think it is our job to better educate our customers with real facts they can see.

There has always been a low end - it used to shoot on Betacam rather than film. Now that low end is shooting on 5D, which is less ugly than Betacam.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Yes, Miami is a great location! Kudos to Miami and a few others! If you are there and you production help, get together with Alan Degen from degenfilms.com and First Unit Productions. First Unit has a killer crew!

And lastly, thanks again to Birger for letting us continue to shoot with some of our favorite lenses from Canon.

Birger rocks

 

[Rob Ruffo]

because its good enough.

the masses don't care to much about quality its quantity and how quick can i get it?

a younger generation has grown up on the web and all they know is instant gratification.

I can give you a similar quote about young people from Plato thousands of years ago.

Young people are actually more visual than ever before, and do appreciate nice visuals. The huge success of Avatar and other highly visual offerings prove that, as does consistently record attendance, year over year at the world's museums.

As if 1970s teenagers, who had a much, much higher incidence of violent crime and a measured far lower average IQ than teenagers today (look it up) were a bunch of refined connoisseurs of fine imagery. Come on now!

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Well I have yet to get a RED camera for a shoot (I've been looking at renting one) but when I get quotes of $500-$750 a day just for the body, its hard to justify when Canon has the 7D for only $2000 to buy. And I've noticed that RED renters have gotten a bit cheaper this year and they have been doing a lot more ads and long-term rental discounts then before, but its still a pricey proposition. I'd love to get a basic RED One set-up for 10k grand, I'd pick that over a DSLR in a heartbeat, but for 25k-30k excluding lenses, its well outside a reasonable indie-budget, renting is really the only way to go unless you got a name, distribution contract or cash to burn.

To make matters worst for them, the T2i just came out and its $800. Sure its harder to use and isn't as good as a RED One, and there are some additional production costs. But the core cost ratio is 20:1! For one maybe 2 days of renting a Red One I can own my own camera system! (Again lenses would be required for both, etc).

A local indie filmmaker is looking at the T2i as a promising cheap new camera (add with his video camera) , and I'm likely going to follow that train of thought (DSLR + High-End Consumer Camcorder) using the Camcorder for Run&Gun scenes and the DSLR for everything else. Sure its only 1080p, but unless I really think my stuff is going to the big screen in a big way, all my potential customers (TV, DVD, Blueray, HDTV) max out at 1080p and from the charts unless everyone gets 100" TVs and huge rooms to view them in (we like to call that theaters), that's not going to change anytime soon.

So the above talk about the "masses", they are your main audience. Unless you have a huge budget to wow them with something absolutely stunning (Like Avatar - in 3D), they're not going to notice or care (or pay a premium for it). Sucks but its true.

The Scarlet looked to be a option for me in 2011; to buy - I can't justify renting a sub-$5000 camera. At the same time I wouldn't be surprised if the scarlet gets a good smack-down by the new DSLRv's or any potential video-bodies using DSLR technologies and I stick with a newer HDSLRv. And with more Nikon and Canon Glass being cheaper than a lot of cine-lenses and now Panasonic getting into it with their 4/3's camera, it may be hard for RED to crack that low-budget film market now that the "bigger" players are in the pool!

What does that spell for the renters? Well they are going to have to drop their prices to compete (only if the RED price drops) or reduce their supply to match the remaining big-buget productions left (more likely); that or go out of business :emote_headwall:.

It's not "only 1080p" actually resolution is more like "only 550p". real 1080p would be fine.

The masses do care. test audiences of CSI Miami (shot on F35) always state how pretty it looked - how sharp, etc. They don;t know the tech details, but they do know (and enjoy) pretty when they see it. As full HD TVs become more the norm, this will be even more the case.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Here in europe I spoke to some production companies, and they see the rise of use of the 7d and 5d happening much more then they could ever have imagined.


I've been asked to shoot some musicvideos for a band , but when there's almost no budget I must admit that there's no other option in the meantime than shooting on canon.

For no budget the 5D is a good option. For some budget - why would you shoot 10K of art and 10K of crew and etc. with a camera that has so many problems? It's just stupid herd mentality then.

 

[Carlos Prio]

No comparison... period!!! I will only use the 7d/5d for something I would shoot on a HVX200. I am now starting to see the stuff being shot on 7d. IMO- Its not holding up in post and in broadcast compression!!!

But once again... Can I get an Epic please???? Whats the new time frame???

The new "Sniffer" trend is producers calling for the MX sensor but still shooting with the 7D!!! Oh Brother!!!

 

[Bryce O]

It's not "only 1080p" actually resolution is more like "only 550p". real 1080p would be fine.

This is what Scarlet should have been... A s35mm 2k cam for 1080p finishing. Nobody needs more than 2k honestly, unless you're a studio that knows for a fact the project will end up in theaters. A true 1080p cam is more than enough for music videos and indie productions. I have a feeling that even when Scarlet is released, as awesome as it will be, low budget productions will still be using the 5D and 7D due to the large-frame imagery. The 35mm look is more often associated with "high-budget" than high-resolution is. I look at hvx and ex1 footage all the time and it just looks like really high resolution camcorder footage.. boring. The 7D looks like film. A low-res compressed version of film, but still film none the less.

A s35mm 2k Scarlet for $2500 would put an end to the DSLR's for sure. I don't know about a 2/3" Scarlet though. 3k from a 2/3" is nice, don't get me wrong, but kind of frivolous. I'll probably just save up and wait for the s35 Scarlet myself. I don't like working with compressed footage, but I NEED low-light shallow DOF and I cringe at the fact of having to buy new glass for a 2/3" cam that is useless for any other camera and has completely no resale value, as nice as it may be.