REAL Adobe support may take time

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I agree. It will be a HUGE improvement over what I have to go through right now: I normally have to wait a week to start editing what is then a 1080P file as my new "master". So I can only record 1 hour per week right now. (2 cameras).

Not sure what you're doing right now, that's insane. Something is very wrong, but I guess Kenn already pointed that out.

 

[Mohammed El Sharqawy]

Thor... I stated clearly that the Alpha R3D SDK does not initially go back to the firewall, but that is on the roadmap. What we have provided allows every company to begin RED support. As with our firmware upgrades, more features will be added as we go along. I can't speak for Cineform or any other company. We have a plan and we are executing it. It is or job, and in our customer's best interests, to release an SDK, then add capability to it as quickly as we can (just like we have done with camera firmware releases). We have done, and continue to do... just that.

Is that less cryptic?

Jim

that impresses me a little, that you Jim have some sensitivity towards cineform,,, don't know actually what is behind the scene... but, as history they once supported converting form .R3D file to their Cineform Format non-De-Bayered I think,,, and to .DPX ... then after they removed after your objection about this... I don't wanna say that your opinion about their support is wrong or even has something to do with contracts RED already have... I'm sure you are doing the best decesions to get on workflows and support... but, what I think is that the .R3D files from RED ONE are very similar in Technology to the Cineform RAW files ... what's different is that cineforms covers an inermediate codec... which when you use PPRO you won't need to convert Cineform RAW to the intermediate before you go... just put al RAW footage on timeline... edit, finish.. then export to intermediate or any other format... the idea here is the editing environment, render engine etc.... which Cineform did a good job about it, not thrilling to me coz I have a lot of issues to say about it, but it works, and uses much less computer resources than any system in the world ever did... when talking about having adobe support in PPRO ,,, then the QUESTION will be is it import files only??? .... a good workflow then is to import .R3D files into 4K Cineform timeline ... otherwise,, having a RENDER ENGINE and CODEC with the import plug for timeline editing... :matrix:
IF, then it might add a lot of stuff here and there...

Mo

 

[Thor Wixom]

I have been using Adobe products since the beginning and never needed (or used) Cineform...how is this "real" support?

digitalfx,

If you've never used it, how do you know you don't need it?

Maybe you don't need it... but if you used it, maybe you would like it, perhaps even want it.

You are a knowledgeable and revered member of this board and I acknowledge that... but if you haven't used it, how can you have an informed opinion?

Everyone keeps telling me I "need" a Mac. Well, I don't. Especially not now.

As far as "real" Adobe 4k support goes...

Cineform provides realtime 4k RAW editing in Adobe Premiere Pro. I have done realtime 4k RAW editing with it. I know what I'm talking about. I did simultaneous color corrections, dissolves, and semi-transparent title overlays on overlapping clips... all in realtime, without dropping a single frame. And this was all without *any* hardware acceleration. Add a Xena card and the deal gets sweeter.

For somewhere between $5k and $10k, you can buy a dual quadcore PC with plenty of RAM, a fast hard drive array like the 3ware Sidecar, the Adobe CS3 Collection, and Cineform Prospect 4k. Many already have fast computer systems and the Adobe Collection, so their only upgrade would be Prospect at $2k.

This is within reach for most.

So I say this respectfully... if you can show me this kind of "real" Adobe 4k support anywhere else, for the same ballpark cost... please do.

-Thor

 

[Troy Smith]

digitalfx,

If you've never used it, how do you know you don't need it?

Maybe you don't need it... but if you used it, maybe you would like it, perhaps even want it.

You are a knowledgeable and revered member of this board and I acknowledge that... but if you haven't used it, how can you have an informed opinion?

Everyone keeps telling me I "need" a Mac. Well, I don't. Especially not now.

As far as "real" Adobe 4k support goes...

Cineform provides realtime 4k RAW editing in Adobe Premiere Pro. I have done realtime 4k RAW editing with it. I know what I'm talking about. I did simultaneous color corrections, dissolves, and semi-transparent title overlays on overlapping clips... all in realtime, without dropping a single frame. And this was all without *any* hardware acceleration. Add a Xena card and the deal gets sweeter.

For somewhere between $5k and $10k, you can buy a dual quadcore PC with plenty of RAM, a fast hard drive array like the 3ware Sidecar, the Adobe CS3 Collection, and Cineform Prospect 4k. Many already have fast computer systems and the Adobe Collection, so their only upgrade would be Prospect at $2k.

This is within reach for most.

So I say this respectfully... if you can show me this kind of "real" Adobe 4k support anywhere else, for the same ballpark cost... please do.

-Thor

Hi Thor,
I'm wondering how the Cineform Raw quality held up to the red raw,
I remember red was showing how the dpx out of the cineform render had
lower quality then the dpx out of redcine, have you closely compared
the cineform raw with the original r3d files?

Just wanting some feedback on that subject if you don't mind.

Regards
Stricko

 

[Joel Kaye]

By the way... I have not had any info given to me on this, but what if RED were planning to approach this like HDCam, or DVCPro, or P2.

You know.. Native support within all major editors, and hardware acceleration within certain capture cards.

I've always thought this had to be the plan if at all possible. I don't know jack about this stuff, but I do know RED's got onboard capture of 4K and playback of 1080P without debayer.

Sure seems like if you can do that in a camera you could do it on a PC within an editor. I've always kinda thought their resistance to Cineform was because RED wants native R3D without a transcode to work in all apps. How else would you design a camera company these days?

 

[Jannard]

Of course we would hope that R3D files would open natively in all apps without a transcode. We think that is probably what our customers want also. But we also recognize that there needs to be other options as well... which is why we continue to work the SDK to be more "open".

"what is best for our customers" drives every decision around RED. We just can't satisfy every demand, whether in the camera or post, as quickly as everyone would like. But we are working on it.

Jim

 

[Thor Wixom]

Jim,

Thank you for the candor, and of course for your efforts.

I'm sure Cineform will do what they can with the SDK, and that they will do more as the SDK opens.

I feel that giant steps have been made in the past few weeks.

One of the constants with Red is that patience always pays off.

-Thor

 

[Jannard]

Thanks for your patience... we know it is frustrating that everything can't be done overnight. We are doing all this for the 1st time. The bright side is that once it is done, it translates forward to every new RED camera or upgrade. It should only be painful once.

Jim

 

[Thor Wixom]

Hi Thor,
I'm wondering how the Cineform Raw quality held up to the red raw,
I remember red was showing how the dpx out of the cineform render had
lower quality then the dpx out of redcine, have you closely compared
the cineform raw with the original r3d files?

Just wanting some feedback on that subject if you don't mind.

Regards
Stricko

Stricko,

There were some posts a while back where Graeme raised questions about the quality of Cineform's demosaic of the .R3D. David Newman from Cineform answered with an updated demosaic that increased quality at the expense of speed (about 10% slower). I'll dig up the links to those posts and PM them to you if you want to review them and judge the results for yourself.

Jim has stated that the RAW "firewall" will eventually be opened. I believe him. Jim kept his commitments to Apple and Assimilate. That should tell us something about his commitments to 3rd party solutions, and his commitment to giving his customers options.

When the firewall is open, that will be time to re-engage the discussion of the quality Cineform's demosaic for .R3D files.

You can bet I will thoroughly test Cineform's demosaic, once it is released... as I'm sure many others will as well.

-Thor

 

[Joel Kaye]

Of course we would hope that R3D files would open natively in all apps without a transcode. We think that is probably what our customers want also

You're reading my mind accurately

 

[Obin Olson]

7 Days to transcode out 2 hours of footage? That's insane. What kind of computer (processor speed) are you using???

same deal here, transcoding sucks ass. Native support will be so much better, and what I have been using for years.

 

[Jason Rivera]

Of course we would hope that R3D files would open natively in all apps without a transcode. We think that is probably what our customers want also. But we also recognize that there needs to be other options as well... which is why we continue to work the SDK to be more "open".

"what is best for our customers" drives every decision around RED. We just can't satisfy every demand, whether in the camera or post, as quickly as everyone would like. But we are working on it.

Jim

Word to the mutha'!

Seems like the only thing that would make sense to aim for as a customer. It's kinda like why go to the moon on a Saturn five rocket when you can go to mars and beyond using a "Jump room?"

 

[Greg M]

digitalfx,

If you've never used it, how do you know you don't need it?

just to clairify, I have used it (trial), I just don't use it. All I was asking is how is this considered "real" support? To me real support of Adobe is just that.

 

[Thor Wixom]

just to clairify, I have used it (trial), I just don't use it. All I was asking is how is this considered "real" support? To me real support of Adobe is just that.

Real support of Adobe, or real support from Adobe?

-Thor

 

[Jannard]

You are getting real support of Adobe, we are getting real support from Adobe.

Jim

 

[david farland]

Jim,
Nice to hear....I believe you here. Anything else is just whiney waffle.
D

 

[conrad gaunt]

Not sure what you're doing right now, that's insane. Something is very wrong, but I guess Kenn already pointed that out.

My guess - Rendering out footage in full res full quality and editing a downscaled 1080p master?

It used to take me 1.5min to export 4k 16:9 from my laptop, until the Visual c++ runtime errors , and Redcine` refusal to export on said machine, ever again (as far as I know, although I get playback in low qual.)
Hopefully the iMac I`ve ordered can do a frame in 60secs (which would be fine, as long as it can keep doing it,, unlike RIPCine!)

 

[conrad gaunt]

Thor... I stated clearly that the Alpha R3D SDK does not initially go back to the firewall, but that is on the roadmap. What we have provided allows every company to begin RED support. As with our firmware upgrades, more features will be added as we go along. I can't speak for Cineform or any other company. We have a plan and we are executing it. It is or job, and in our customer's best interests, to release an SDK, then add capability to it as quickly as we can (just like we have done with camera firmware releases). We have done, and continue to do... just that.

Is that less cryptic?

Jim

Pretty much, but.. by firewall, do you mean raw sensor data? or something else? That would be great. I haven`t printed out the SDK form I`ve downloaded yet, but one day I`d love to get hold of that raw 12bit data to test its motion tracking potential, and also to test some super resolution/demosaic algorithms, as I believe it is the best data to use for M.T`ing, but there`s no rush at this end (except for a Red Raid )

ps, thanx 4 1912, amazing camera.

 

[Kenn Michael]

60 seconds per frame??? That's outrageous!

4K Full debayer to 1080 Pro Res file takes 1 sec per frame on an 8 core Mac Pro. My 2 year old Macbook pro can do the same thing in 4 sec per frame.

 

[Thor Wixom]

You are getting real support of Adobe, we are getting real support from Adobe.

Jim

Works for me.

-Thor