Ready to get serious about color correction, need advice!

[Marcus Friedlander]

Hey everyone! As the title states, I’m ready to start getting serious about color correction… but I have a ton of questions and looking for some Reduser wisdom!


I’ve been messing around with grading on RC-X and Resolve for the last year and a half, and now I’m ready to invest in the proper gear. The reason I’m making the jump now is because I’ve now shot three indie features, and I have the chance to grade them all as well! So everything that I’ll be asking will be in reference to grading and delivering indie features in Resolve 12 or maybe 12.5 depending on how timing works out. If all goes well, I can continue to shoot and grade my own features for this same producer!!!


My goal is to build a color critical viewing signal in my bedroom so I can grade indie features, and potentially music videos and commercials. (not ideal I know but it’s the space that I have to work with.) Like for everyone else, cost is an issue, so the cheaper the better. However, I'm always willing to spend money on a product that's truly worth it.


Things I currently have:
MacPro Trashcan (8 Core - Dual D700’s - 32Gb RAM)
Magic Trackpad and Keyboard
8 year old Samsung LCD (I know, I know, that’s why I’m upgrading)
24Tb Lacie 8Big
A handful of smaller SSD’s and HDD’s.


Things I know I need (feel free to let me know what I missed):
Grading Monitor
Color calibration software/hardware
Some sort of BMD device
Color chart(s)




1 - What grading monitors should I be looking at? Is it better to hold off on buying a high end grading monitor and buy something cheaper for today?
MY PERFECT FUTURE PROOFED MONITOR (Does this even exist today?)
REC 2020
10-12 Bit
4K DCI
HDR Compatible
OLED


WHAT I NEED RIGHT NOW:
P3
10 Bit
2K DCI (Maaaaaaybe UHD/4K DCI)
OLED






2 - What color calibration software/hardware do I need? I’m not too familiar with this side of the world either. Anything I should know that may seem obvious?


3 - What do I need to do to get a color critical signal out of my MacPro Trashcan and into my shiny new grading monitor? I’m unfamiliar with how and why you would need one of the BMD boxes in your signal chain but I’m pretty sure that’s what you need?


4 - What type of color chart(s) do I need? Why would you get one instead of the other? is it better to have multiple types of charts from multiple companies? Or multiple sizes from the same company?


5 - My last major question is about my grading space. If I already know its not ideal (I don’t have blacked out windows or 18% gray walls etc.) Is everything above rendered useless? I do all my color critical work at night when everything is pitch black anyways, and I’m a night owl so it doesn’t really bother me. During the day, I’ll work on keys, masks, tracks, etc. So I think its a workable system but would love to get other’s opinions! I would hate to invest all this time and effort into creating a color critical signal that turns out to be useless because my landlord wont let me paint my walls!


If you have any questions for me, please feel free to ask. Thanks in advance!

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

There's a forum called lift gamma gain that is all for and about color, you should check that out too

 

[Ugo Del]

On Liftgammagain it seems everybody agrees that the cheapest professional monitor solution is the FSI CM171. It comes calibrated and you can send it for free calibration anytime in the US or in Europe. A cheaper and good solution is the Eizo CG247 but it's not a real broadcast monitor, it's too much of a hassle to get some good calibration result in my opinion. I was going to buy this one but color management is already boring, I don't want to add calibration issues in the battle field. I'm now looking for the FSI. Apparently it works well with the Ultrastudio Mini Monitor out of Resolve.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Cheap and professional is a tough combo, but the FSI 171 is in the neighborhood. The calibration support from FSI is hard to pass up for a one man shop. The trashcan is supposed to be 10 bit compliant as of ElCap, but a dedicated interface is still the superior option - especially if the cost is reasonable.

A proper viewing environment is critical. Even if you can't paint the walls, you should be able to get a piece of gray foam core/poster board to put right behind your monitor that encompasses most of your peripheral vision. You will want to put a full spectrum bias light behind the monitor, it should be roughly 10% of the lumen output of the display. I'd suggest an OTT light (online and some craft stores for under $50) that you bounce off the gray card. Wear a black shirt when grading to limit reflection back onto the display.

Suggest you engage with an experienced colorist for initial set up of your system and some advice on what not to do. You may not have the budget, or inclination, to have a pro do all your color work - but hiring one for a single day could save you from finding out what you don't know the hard way. Just sayin'

Cheers - #19

 

[Patrick Hogue]

I would also recommend the FSI CM171. The money you would spend on a not-ideal solution (Eizo, NEC, HP Dreamcolor) could have paid for 1/2 of the FSI monitor that checks off all the boxes (SDI, nearly all frame rates, interlaced or progressive, Rec.709, built in scopes, free factory calibration...). It's what I started with before I bought my CM250 OLED monitors.

Your question is asked every other month on the Lift Gamma Gain forum and there are volumes of wise words from experienced colorists to peruse. Check it out.

 

[PatrickFaith]

....
Things I know I need (feel free to let me know what I missed):
...
Some sort of BMD device
...

There was just this great thread in liftgammagain how this major guy uses this crappy keyboard and mouse (in the revenant thread over there, those guys are awesome).

 

[Marc Wielage]

There was just this great thread in liftgammagain how this major guy uses this crappy keyboard and mouse (in the revenant thread over there, those guys are awesome).

That would be Steve Scott, one of the best colorists in the world, who exclusively uses Lustre and Flame for all the big Marvel films at Technicolor. Steve does great work. He's backed by great assistants and the top color scientists and engineers at Technicolor, which help a lot.

What grading monitors should I be looking at? Is it better to hold off on buying a high end grading monitor and buy something cheaper for today?
MY PERFECT FUTURE PROOFED MONITOR (Does this even exist today?)
REC 2020
10-12 Bit
4K DCI
HDR Compatible
OLED

Yes, it exists. One is the Sony BVM-X300, which is about $35,000; Dolby's Pulsar display is reportedly about $150K, but I think at the moment they're only leasing it. Grade-1 HDR monitors are not cheap. Bear in mind a consumer monitor will not work as a grading monitor, because it's not stable or reliable enough. DCI theatrical projectors are also another way to go, but have significant hurdles in terms of cost, power, heat, and setup requirements. You also need to calibrate it to a known standard, and that's a whole ball of wax unto itself. I think most freelance colorists are just working in HD with a reasonable Flanders Scientific display or something like that, and then rendering 4K when they need it.

Steve Shaw's Light Illusion is pretty good software for monitor calibration and they have terrific support:

http://www.lightillusion.com/

I would also add to your list a control surface, because color correction is tough without them. While there are people like Mr. Scott who color-correct with just a mouse, in truth it's very painful and exacting work, particularly when you have limited time and budgets (as with indie projects). I would recommend Tangent Wave as having some excellent color-correction panels at different price ranges, widely available from the usual suspects like B&H Photo and many local dealers. The little Tangent Ripple panel is great if you can get by with just the basic lift/gamma/gain knobs and is only about $350.

I would also add to your list the need for lots of very fast storage, plus a lot of backups. I think I just hit 40TB and have to upgrade fairly soon -- storage requirements keep multiplying every year.

 

[Marcus Friedlander]

Thank you very much for all of your responses everyone!!!!! Really appreciate the time you took to answer my questions! Sorry for taking so long to get back to all of you, I've been busy making the money needed to pay for all this stuff

I'm definitely going to dive into the LGG forums to continue doing more research, but do you mind if I continue asking questions here? I've got a big ole soft spot for Reduser


- It seems like the FSI CM171 is the most popular choice but it's LCD instead of OLED. I really love OLED's but I don't know if the extra money is worth it or not. As much as I prefer the OLED look, I'm worried that since the rest of the world is still on LCD, my OLED based grades may not match up properly. Any legitimacy to those fears?

-Patrick, what made you decide to jump up to the OLED model?

It's what I started with before I bought my CM250 OLED monitors.

- For the FSI, is it better to send the monitor in for calibration or purchase one of the home calibration units and do it myself? How often does it need to be recalibrated?

The trashcan is supposed to be 10 bit compliant as of ElCap, but a dedicated interface is still the superior option - especially if the cost is reasonable.

- Can you please elaborate. Why is a dedicated interface superior to the signal that is coming directly out of the computer? I'm confused as to how a piece of hardware, outside of the computer, can improve the signal coming directly out of the computer? What am I missing? I'm not on ElCap yet so I may need to explore this option.

A proper viewing environment is critical. Even if you can't paint the walls, you should be able to get a piece of gray foam core/poster board to put right behind your monitor that encompasses most of your peripheral vision. You will want to put a full spectrum bias light behind the monitor, it should be roughly 10% of the lumen output of the display. I'd suggest an OTT light (online and some craft stores for under $50) that you bounce off the gray card. Wear a black shirt when grading to limit reflection back onto the display.

- Thank you for this fantastic advice!!!!!! Just curious as to why you would need to light the grey card? And why specifically a full spectrum light and not a light source similar to the screen's light source?

Suggest you engage with an experienced colorist for initial set up of your system and some advice on what not to do. You may not have the budget, or inclination, to have a pro do all your color work - but hiring one for a single day could save you from finding out what you don't know the hard way. Just sayin'

- Another great piece of advice! I don't know many experienced colorists, but hopefully I can find one who will offer me some advice in exchange for lunch and a beer, or maybe a camera rental

Yes, it exists. One is the Sony BVM-X300, which is about $35,000; Dolby's Pulsar display is reportedly about $150K, but I think at the moment they're only leasing it. Grade-1 HDR monitors are not cheap.

- Do you have an idea of when this tech will come down more in price? If it's 3-5 years away I may invest in something OLED right now. If not, I'll probably get a cheaper option and then reinvest when the tech comes down in price.

I think most freelance colorists are just working in HD with a reasonable Flanders Scientific display or something like that, and then rendering 4K when they need it.

- With that type of workflow, how do colorist QC their 4k work? I'm fairly certain my producer will push to deliver at least UHD files, if not true DCI 4k so it's something I'd like to keep in mind. Also, how would working on an HD screen for a 4k deliverable affect sharpening? How can you be sure when sharp is sharp enough?

I would also add to your list a control surface, because color correction is tough without them... I would recommend Tangent Wave as having some excellent color-correction panels at different price ranges... The little Tangent Ripple panel is great if you can get by with just the basic lift/gamma/gain knobs and is only about $350.

- Thanks for this suggestion! I'll look into it!

I would also add to your list the need for lots of very fast storage, plus a lot of backups. I think I just hit 40TB and have to upgrade fairly soon -- storage requirements keep multiplying every year.

- Do you have one major raid that handles all of that? Or do you have multiple raids? I have one Lacie 24TB 8Big and I know I need more storage in the near future. Been thinking about purchasing another 8Big, but the physical size of the raid makes me think about maybe upgrading my current 24Tb to 48TB instead. In your opinion, is it better to have two 24TB raids or one 48TB? Or do you perhaps have another, physically smaller, raid that you can recommend?


Thank you again to everyone for all your help! You are all fantastic and a big part of the reason I have such a soft spot for reduser. Thanks again!!!!

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

(snip) - Can you please elaborate. Why is a dedicated interface superior to the signal that is coming directly out of the computer? I'm confused as to how a piece of hardware, outside of the computer, can improve the signal coming directly out of the computer? What am I missing? I'm not on ElCap yet so I may need to explore this option.(snip)

These days it's possible to get the output from newer computers to mimic a progressive, rec709 video signal credibly. That said, it's still pretty easy to have things like gamma, refresh rate, legal range vs extended range values and other parameters of your computer display output that do not match the SMPTE standards specified in a deliverables contract. The most common fail is 2.2 gamma vs 2.4 gamma. Newer hardware, graphics boards and OSs are now crossing the 8 bit barrier, but in real world implementation many of those signal chains default back to 8 bits. A purpose built external video I/O device makes all that moot.

Cheers - #19

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

(snip) Just curious as to why you would need to light the grey card? And why specifically a full spectrum light and not a light source similar to the screen's light source? (snip)

When grading, your individual perception of color is easily influenced by your environment. You want a neutral reference that is neither reddish (most tungsten) greenish (many fluorescents, CFLs and LEDs) or bluish (sunlight, some LEDs) as it will induce your brain to "correct" back to white, which then "colors" (pun intended) your perception. I typically place the bias light behind the monitor so it's not directly in my eyes and then bounce it off the gray surface to make it easier to get the roughly 10:1 ratio between the display output and the bias light output. If the bias light is not full spectrum, then whatever native color temperature and tint that it has "pollutes" the neutrality. You can buy "professional" bias lights for grading suites, but I just use the OTT lights as they are lower in cost.

Cheers - #19

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

(snip) I don't know many experienced colorists, but hopefully I can find one who will offer me some advice in exchange for lunch and a beer, or maybe a camera rental (snip)

You're in LA pal, there's probably a colorist living under a bridge near you ;-) Joking aside, I think you can find one to help - but please offer them more than lunch and a beer. Bartering a camera rental could be a good compromise if you can't lay out the cash.

Cheers - #19

 

[Patrick Hogue]

-Patrick, what made you decide to jump up to the OLED model?



- For the FSI, is it better to send the monitor in for calibration or purchase one of the home calibration units and do it myself? How often does it need to be recalibrated?

As a DIT, I typically work along side the DOP and sometimes the director while monitoring A and B cameras, and using LiveGrade to set basic looks. OLED monitors have become the standard for this workflow in the last 3 years. I was still using rented Sony BVM-E250s, PVM-2541s and PVM-A250s when I bought my FSI CM171 as a spare, even though it was not OLED. After some bad experiences with improperly calibrated Sony OLEDs from a rental house, I decided that I needed to own my own monitors which had proper internal 3D LUT calibration capability (the Sonys do not). I found good deals on the CM250s and purchased the LightSpace CSM+probe for FSI bundle from Flanders and it's been a solid investment. If you live in the US, shipping the monitor to Flanders every 6 months for the free calibration would probably not be too costly. As I live in Canada, shipping costs are high enough that it made sense to buy the calibration software and hardware and do it myself.

 

[Marc Wielage]

Can you please elaborate. Why is a dedicated interface superior to the signal that is coming directly out of the computer? I'm confused as to how a piece of hardware, outside of the computer, can improve the signal coming directly out of the computer? What am I missing? I'm not on ElCap yet so I may need to explore this option.

The color output from the software has to be color managed outside of the operating system, so that no matter what the OS does, the output will remain exactly the same. It also has to be calibrated to a known standard like Rec709 (or Rec2020 or P3). That way, the pictures stay the same, day after day, week after week. The key is to be able to trust the pictures you see on the hero display.

Do you have an idea of when this tech will come down more in price? If it's 3-5 years away I may invest in something OLED right now. If not, I'll probably get a cheaper option and then reinvest when the tech comes down in price.

No clue. I came from a world where a Grade-1 HD display cost $40,000 as recently as 2002-2003. I was thrilled when we could get a decent 40" Panasonic plasma for under $5000 and calibrate it reasonably close to Rec709. Bear in mind these are still used every day for broadcast TV, though they're getting replaced by the Sony OLEDs (back to $35,000).

With that type of workflow, how do colorist QC their 4k work? I'm fairly certain my producer will push to deliver at least UHD files, if not true DCI 4k so it's something I'd like to keep in mind. Also, how would working on an HD screen for a 4k deliverable affect sharpening? How can you be sure when sharp is sharp enough?

Watch them all the way downrezzed to 1920. If there's a glitch, a hit, a color shift, a black hole, a missing frame, a flash... we'll see it. I'm not a fan of enhancement in general and feel it can be very problematic. When I do enhance anything it's usually very, very selective, done with windows on just a small portion of the screen (like eyes or a product or a particular image). In truth, I soften images more than I sharpen them.

Do you have one major raid that handles all of that? Or do you have multiple raids? I have one Lacie 24TB 8Big and I know I need more storage in the near future. Been thinking about purchasing another 8Big, but the physical size of the raid makes me think about maybe upgrading my current 24Tb to 48TB instead. In your opinion, is it better to have two 24TB raids or one 48TB? Or do you perhaps have another, physically smaller, raid that you can recommend?

In my case, two Thunderbolt RAIDS and a lot of backups. I like the G-Techs, but I'm leaning more towards OWC these days because they're more affordable and just as fast. RAID speed is often a function of drive size and type, so there are quite a few factors involved. A stack of 8TB drives is not necessarily faster than a stack of 5TB drives.

BTW, Marcus: if you have not done so already, you should look into the Resolve tutorials from Ripple Training, Mixing Light, and FXPHD:

Warren Eagles' FXPHD Resolve Tutorials:
https://www.fxphd.com/store/fastforward/resolve-v12-fundamentals/


Alexis Van Hurkman's Resolve Tutorials:
http://www.rippletraining.com/categories/davinci-resolve/


Patrick Inhofer's Mixing Light Resolve Tutoriasl:
https://mixinglight.com/color-correction-tutorials/davinci-resolve-12-tutorials/


I like all three for different reasons: Alexis' is very thorough and technical; Warren is very down-to-earth and provides practical examples; and Patrick goes into the basics and touches on non-obvious extras. Each does a very good job. I have not been as impressed by the other tutorials on the web, frequently done by people with dubious credentials. Note that Van Hurkman actually wrote the Resolve user manual for Blackmagic.


Alexis' book is also very good:

Alexis Van Hurkman's Color Correction Handbook:
http://www.amazon.com/Color-Correct...d_sim_b_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=1CHXH704NKTQ12DRM6BZ

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

I do all my color critical work at night when everything is pitch black anyways, and I’m a night owl so it doesn’t really bother me.

You are doing visual work at the time of reduced visual sensibility and/or stamina, with reduced objectivity and with enhanced stress to your eyes.

Meanwhile you are asking about the tools you see in front of you and can purchase.

 

[Marcus Friedlander]

These days it's possible to get the output from newer computers to mimic a progressive, rec709 video signal credibly. That said, it's still pretty easy to have things like gamma, refresh rate, legal range vs extended range values and other parameters of your computer display output that do not match the SMPTE standards specified in a deliverables contract. The most common fail is 2.2 gamma vs 2.4 gamma. Newer hardware, graphics boards and OSs are now crossing the 8 bit barrier, but in real world implementation many of those signal chains default back to 8 bits. A purpose built external video I/O device makes all that moot.

Cheers - #19

Thanks for the explanation! So now I understand why an I/O device is needed, but I'm still confused on what's actually going on inside those enclosures. But I'm sure I can look that up on my own!

 

[Marcus Friedlander]

When grading, your individual perception of color is easily influenced by your environment. You want a neutral reference that is neither reddish (most tungsten) greenish (many fluorescents, CFLs and LEDs) or bluish (sunlight, some LEDs) as it will induce your brain to "correct" back to white, which then "colors" (pun intended) your perception. I typically place the bias light behind the monitor so it's not directly in my eyes and then bounce it off the gray surface to make it easier to get the roughly 10:1 ratio between the display output and the bias light output. If the bias light is not full spectrum, then whatever native color temperature and tint that it has "pollutes" the neutrality. You can buy "professional" bias lights for grading suites, but I just use the OTT lights as they are lower in cost.

Cheers - #19

Very interesting! I'm always fascinated by the power of perception so it's interesting to see how it can affect even something like your vision!

 

[Marcus Friedlander]

You're in LA pal, there's probably a colorist living under a bridge near you ;-) Joking aside, I think you can find one to help - but please offer them more than lunch and a beer. Bartering a camera rental could be a good compromise if you can't lay out the cash.

Cheers - #19

Hahahaha thats a very good point! I'm still paying off my camera so every penny counts, but I will definetely do my best to properly compensate them for their time and experience with camera rentals!

 

[Marcus Friedlander]

As a DIT, I typically work along side the DOP and sometimes the director while monitoring A and B cameras, and using LiveGrade to set basic looks. OLED monitors have become the standard for this workflow in the last 3 years. I was still using rented Sony BVM-E250s, PVM-2541s and PVM-A250s when I bought my FSI CM171 as a spare, even though it was not OLED. After some bad experiences with improperly calibrated Sony OLEDs from a rental house, I decided that I needed to own my own monitors which had proper internal 3D LUT calibration capability (the Sonys do not). I found good deals on the CM250s and purchased the LightSpace CSM+probe for FSI bundle from Flanders and it's been a solid investment. If you live in the US, shipping the monitor to Flanders every 6 months for the free calibration would probably not be too costly. As I live in Canada, shipping costs are high enough that it made sense to buy the calibration software and hardware and do it myself.

Thanks for the detailed write up! So would you suggest that I find the extra money to purchase the CM250? I would like to also use the monitor on set, and rental income is always a bonus. I'm sure the 171 is more than capable but the OLED is tempting!!!!

Also, is there a qualitative difference between calibrating at home or calibrating at the factory? Is one objectively better than the other?

 

[Marcus Friedlander]

The color output from the software has to be color managed outside of the operating system, so that no matter what the OS does, the output will remain exactly the same. It also has to be calibrated to a known standard like Rec709 (or Rec2020 or P3). That way, the pictures stay the same, day after day, week after week. The key is to be able to trust the pictures you see on the hero display.

There it is! That's the piece of info I was missing hahaha. So the I/O device is handling the color management?

No clue. I came from a world where a Grade-1 HD display cost $40,000 as recently as 2002-2003. I was thrilled when we could get a decent 40" Panasonic plasma for under $5000 and calibrate it reasonably close to Rec709. Bear in mind these are still used every day for broadcast TV, though they're getting replaced by the Sony OLEDs (back to $35,000).

Good to know that I'm probably in for a wait before those monitors come down to prices I can justify.

Watch them all the way downrezzed to 1920. If there's a glitch, a hit, a color shift, a black hole, a missing frame, a flash... we'll see it. I'm not a fan of enhancement in general and feel it can be very problematic. When I do enhance anything it's usually very, very selective, done with windows on just a small portion of the screen (like eyes or a product or a particular image). In truth, I soften images more than I sharpen them.

I'm not a huge fan of blanket sharpening, but I absolutely love sharpening the eyes of the talent, but I'm worried about overdoing it. There's something about the soft roll of the cheek skin into the sharp wrinkles around the eyes that feels so cinematically real to me. And I know that's an oxymoron . But when it's pushed to far, it quickly picks up that "digital" look. But you are saying that a 1920 monitor will be good enough to QC? So I shouldn't be worried right?

BTW, Marcus: if you have not done so already, you should look into the Resolve tutorials from Ripple Training, Mixing Light, and FXPHD:


Warren Eagles' FXPHD Resolve Tutorials:
https://www.fxphd.com/store/fastforward/resolve-v12-fundamentals/




Alexis Van Hurkman's Resolve Tutorials:
http://www.rippletraining.com/categories/davinci-resolve/




Patrick Inhofer's Mixing Light Resolve Tutoriasl:
https://mixinglight.com/color-correction-tutorials/davinci-resolve-12-tutorials/




I like all three for different reasons: Alexis' is very thorough and technical; Warren is very down-to-earth and provides practical examples; and Patrick goes into the basics and touches on non-obvious extras. Each does a very good job. I have not been as impressed by the other tutorials on the web, frequently done by people with dubious credentials. Note that Van Hurkman actually wrote the Resolve user manual for Blackmagic.




Alexis' book is also very good:


Alexis Van Hurkman's Color Correction Handbook:
http://www.amazon.com/Color-Correct...d_sim_b_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=1CHXH704NKTQ12DRM6BZ

I've been reading the Tao colorist newsletter for the last year or so and it's been invaluable to my education. Thank you for providing some other quality sources of information. Can't wait to dive into them!!!


Thank you again for all of your insights!!! I really appreciate it!!!

 

[Marcus Friedlander]

You are doing visual work at the time of reduced visual sensibility and/or stamina, with reduced objectivity and with enhanced stress to your eyes.

Meanwhile you are asking about the tools you see in front of you and can purchase.

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you are saying. Can you rephrase?


And another great big huge thank you to everyone again for all your help!