read this before recording audio to camera

[farroutpro]

Since it began shipping, Sound Devices has received numerous inquiries concerning audio interconnection with the Red One camera and our field mixers and recorders. We elected to bring an example of the Red camera in-house for audio testing.

http://www.sounddevices.com/notes/cameras/red-one/

Conclusion

For most dialog applications, the Red One’s near 16-bit audio performance is similar to many of the digital pro-sumer and pro cameras we have tested. This is perfectly acceptable for dialog, especially when hit with a good, clean line-level signal. Sound Devices recommends dual-system sound for critical applications.

 

[jimhare]

That's good information! Has the test has been redone with build 16?

 

[Brian Ferguson]

Scott,

It is well known that audio came about late on the RED ONE compared to visuals, but your recommendations are wise. Generally I have found if you have a clean mic and line level on a RED you are good. If you have hiss you might have a board problem or an incredibly low level mic situation.

Best bet is use the RED for reference and dual system for security. But I have had episodic sound mixers give me a line level mix (reference) on a single audio channel (on a test) and it did not sound much different than the show I saw on TV later. Total dead on sync and really good audio. Totally usable for off-line and on-line if needed.

BriFerg

 

[MikeHedge]

any cheap mixers/ recorders?

 

[Yannick Hagman]

http://www.scarletuser.com/showthread.php?t=587

 

[Lauri Kettunen]

Generally I have found if you have a clean mic and line level on a RED you are good. If you have hiss you might have a board problem or an incredibly low level mic situation.

Brian,

What kind of cables do you recommend at RED for recording low level signals outdoors such as birds? I have a SD preamplifier and noticed that with the RED cables have to often insert the maximum signal to the camera. Another detail is that in case of weak signals the meters show nothing although there is an input.

Recently, I made cables without any padding and it seems the signal is much stronger. But, what does this imply precisely? Guess, the frequency response is somewhat altered. Anything else? But, if the choice is to exploit the padded cables and a mic with a mirror/reflector, that will also make an akward effect on the sound as if the sound came through an old-fashion telephone. Needless to say, an additional audio system is not an alternative as the weight of the whole system is already on its limits; not able to carry any further equipment.

I would make tests myself, but in lack of audio support in PC that's rather clumsy at the moment. So, any feedback from RED would be highly appreciated. Thanks.

 

[Brian Ferguson]

Brian,

What kind of cables do you recommend at RED for recording low level signals outdoors such as birds? I have a SD preamplifier and noticed that with the RED cables have to often insert the maximum signal to the camera. Another detail is that in case of weak signals the meters show nothing although there is an input.

Recently, I made cables without any padding and it seems the signal is much stronger. But, what does this imply precisely? Guess, the frequency response is somewhat altered. Anything else? But, if the choice is to exploit the padded cables and a mic with a mirror/reflector, that will also make an akward effect on the sound as if the sound came through an old-fashion telephone. Needless to say, an additional audio system is not an alternative as the weight of the whole system is already on its limits; not able to carry any further equipment.

I would make tests myself, but in lack of audio support in PC that's rather clumsy at the moment. So, any feedback from RED would be highly appreciated. Thanks.

If you are using a preamp then you are at Line level and you should be safe using the cables you made without the pad. There was a lot of "hot audio" at line level early in the audio builds hence the RED cable with the pad. There is no level adjustment in line level so I am a little baffled as if you are talking maximum on the pre-amp side or the camera. If you test on the camera and playback on camera and you get good results, then thats what I would go with.
You are probably getting fairly low abmbient audio using a parabolic type mic to begin with.

Brian

 

[Lauri Kettunen]

There is no level adjustment in line level so I am a little baffled as if you are talking maximum on the pre-amp side or the camera.

Brian, thanks a lot for your answer. Yes, I meant, the knobs of the preamplifier have to be "turned to northeast" to get a reasonable signal level into the camera when using the padded cables, and I'm recording ambient sounds outdoors. But, your answer already gave me the feedback I was after; I'll use to cables without the pads. Also, just read about the coming audio board update program, so the audio side will only improve. All this is just great!

 

[Brian Ferguson]

Brian, thanks a lot for your answer. Yes, I meant, the knobs of the preamplifier have to be "turned to northeast" to get a reasonable signal level into the camera when using the padded cables, and I'm recording ambient sounds outdoors. But, your answer already gave me the feedback I was after; I'll use to cables without the pads. Also, just read about the coming audio board update program, so the audio side will only improve. All this is just great!

Hi Lauri,
Yes the new audio board will make your life in this regard much better. The pads are gone, the phantom is very clean, squeaky clean . I just saw Jarred's post about the new board from earlier, so now I can talk about it. I have been using the new board for a little while now - I love it. I just have an early pre-production test board and have no problems using it in real productions.

I get to bang the new stuff around and give feedback to engineering. I have to say I have not had any negative feedback on this board, happy camper material.

Yes if you are using line level and your levels were too low the pad cables might cause a drop that increases the noise floor. People also need to realize that two different preamps or mixers might be set-up to different levels of line level. My mixer has a menu adjustment to increase the line level output, I have just left that alone so it takes that variable out of the equation.

Brian

 

[Shawn Nelson]

I use my Sound Devices SD302 and MM1 to record straight line-in to my Red using Sennheiser MKH60 and MKH50 mics and am thoroughly happy with the results.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

I use my Sound Devices SD302 and MM1 to record straight line-in to my Red using Sennheiser MKH60 and MKH50 mics and am thoroughly happy with the results.

Good man Shawn. That's a nice little collection of sound gear you got going. Hard to go wrong with that setup.

 

[Roberto B]

I use my Sound Devices SD302 and MM1 to record straight line-in to my Red using Sennheiser MKH60 and MKH50 mics and am thoroughly happy with the results.

so.. no dual-system on your backyard?

 

[farroutpro]

Scott,

It is well known that audio came about late on the RED ONE compared to visuals, but your recommendations are wise. Generally I have found if you have a clean mic and line level on a RED you are good. If you have hiss you might have a board problem or an incredibly low level mic situation.

Best bet is use the RED for reference and dual system for security. But I have had episodic sound mixers give me a line level mix (reference) on a single audio channel (on a test) and it did not sound much different than the show I saw on TV later. Total dead on sync and really good audio. Totally usable for off-line and on-line if needed.

BriFerg

I haven't had one editor ever tell me that they used the audio sent to the RED over the audio I turn in on a DVDRAM, CD-R or harddrive. Not one. Whether it is the 2-3 frames of out of sync or the low dynamic range or the over all poor audio quality they choose to use the master disc. I work with advertising agencies as well as TV, movies, etc. Even with the current B16 v3.2.5 I have received negative feedback from editors from several high end post houses, including Sony in Culver City and Technicolor at Universal most recently.

The current commercial project I am involved in is using a RED that was shipped directly from the mothership to production with all current firmware and hardware updates. We have had nothing but problems since its arrival. With post at Technicolor averaging approx. 6 hours for every hour of footage and the constant problems on set (heat, fan noise, OS crashes) the producers will not use the RED camera system on any of the projects moving forward.

Both Sony and Technicolor have agreed with Sound Devices posted tests and will only use the master DVDRAM audio. Our workflow is to turn in 2 separate discs (CD-R with a mono or stereo mix and a DVDRAM with all ISO's, both discs are recorded at 24bit/48K).

I have sat in during edits with the post sound mixers and have had them play back the camera audio and my master audio and the difference is night and day different both to the ear and on the waveform. The RED audio is flat and thin sounding to the ear and has a smaller footprint on the waveform.

I have had better luck recording audio on to the Sony SRW1 or Panavision SSR-1 deck when working with either the Panavision Genesis or the Grass Valley Viper.

Both the Sony SRW1 and Panavision SSR-1 decks record audio at 24bit/48k and offers both analogue and digital I/O, which is what the RED should have offered.

 

[shashbugu]

it is a great camera that is future proof, the problems I have personally had can not compare to sony or technicolor in terms of money spent. But I like the fact that the red teams Knows its challenges. I feel Red should have realeased the camera recording at 1080p to 2K with full 24/48kbit sound and onboard dsp from, rme, motu, m-audio, or any of those companies. initialy satisfying its customers with a good 1080p post audio/video realtime workflow then taken the the time to perfect its 4k offerings. its very difficult to record audio externally in a non eng, non sync enviroment. with red the audio is too low or too high, plus you can forget about post. my 2 cents

 

[Sound Sorcerer]

I haven't had one editor ever tell me that they used the audio sent to the RED over the audio I turn in on a DVDRAM, CD-R or harddrive. Not one.

I've just wrapped a feature shoot on a RED... The editor was on site last week & said he wasn't even listening to audio from Camera & synching sound from my audio files. :gun: