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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Re-Framing 4K for 720 HD and SD

Mark Mannschreck

Mark Mannschreck

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I'm planning to shoot a personal doco feature as my first Red project. I will be finishing DVCPro HD 720P or maybe even D1 so I finally wanted to get an idea of my re-framing abilites in post... Thought I'd post it for anyone interested. I'm actually considering shooting Masters ONLY and going in for MS and CU in post. 1). 4096X1743 2). 2048X1152 3). 1920X1080 4). 1280X720 5). 720X486
 
yeah, exactly. However, I think it will provide a much different look than physically moving the camera, or switching focal lengths. Also you probably have to strictly stay with shooting masters and reframing in post, within the project. I think it would look awkward if there was a cut thrown in there that wasnt a reframed 4K master.
 
Has anyone seen the REM music video for Imitation of Life? They do lots of reframing but it looks very pixelated. That sort of video shot on RED would be amazing.
 
I have to say I've never liked the look of pan and scanned footage. It's not a quality issue at all, I've seen very high end footage scanned and reframed and the quality is there. It's just looks lazy and kindof crap. You don't get the perspective shift of say moving from a wide angle lens to a medium master or more tele shot. I just don't think it cuts to well. It feels very obvious to me, and frankly a little lazy. That being said, I have had to do it before on projects and it's saved my butt.

_mike
 
This same topic was discussed at length here:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1942

The general consensus is, it might be good as a backup method of getting something you may have missed, or when absolutely necessary, but it definitely should not be actively practiced. You'd be robbing yourself of better looking shots.
 
Forget the coverage stuff, how about just doing some simple reframing if your end goal is a 2K master? What program would you use to do the cropping and reframing?
 
Tom said:
Forget the coverage stuff, how about just doing some simple reframing if your end goal is a 2K master? What program would you use to do the cropping and reframing?
Click to expand...

I would use After Effects. Better subpixel positioning than Final Cut.
 
AftonGrant said:
This same topic was discussed at length here:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1942

The general consensus is, it might be good as a backup method of getting something you may have missed, or when absolutely necessary, but it definitely should not be actively practiced. You'd be robbing yourself of better looking shots.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link - good info... I thought I had read every thread here.

I am thinking of using it for a documentary rather than a narrative feature. I am anticipating lots of shots I won't be able to shoot twice... I don't plan on relying on it soley. Having the ability to reframe to that extent will give me more creative options in post.
 
Don't forget the apparent change in sharpness. While usually downrezzing can augment the perceived sharpness of an image, intercutting between downrezzed shots and pan-and-scanned shots can be tricky, just see the example pictures you posted, you'll get an idea.

The REM video is amazing. Reframing it's a resource and can make for some interesting things, but it's not substitute for breaking down your shots. Be it for a fiction or doc...
 
Let's say you're not doing any pan and scanning, just a simple cropping of the image from 4K to 2K, with no scaling. The pixels don't really need to move at all, do they? Can you do simple cropping in Premiere Pro or Final Cut? I honestly have never tried it, mainly because my final master is almost always the exact same size as I shot originally. Shoot 720p, finish at 720p.

I guess if you wanted to crop out a 3K frame from 4K, then downres it to 2K for your master, then you would be talking about shifting pixels around to do the 3K to 2K downsample. Is that right?
 
Tom said:
Let's say you're not doing any pan and scanning, just a simple cropping of the image from 4K to 2K, with no scaling. The pixels don't really need to move at all, do they? Can you do simple cropping in Premiere Pro or Final Cut? I honestly have never tried it, mainly because my final master is almost always the exact same size as I shot originally. Shoot 720p, finish at 720p.
Click to expand...

Yeah - In Final Cut, you'd just drop the 4K Redcode media into your 2K (or whatever) timeline. It will be center cropped by default and size itself down to your timeline... Put it back at 100% scale. Then drag it around to where you want to postition it. The new "Open Format Timeline" will be a BIG help with mixed format projects.
 
taubkin said:
Don't forget the apparent change in sharpness. While usually downrezzing can augment the perceived sharpness of an image, intercutting between downrezzed shots and pan-and-scanned shots can be tricky, just see the example pictures you posted, you'll get an idea.
Click to expand...

I agree, but I should point out that the selection used for the test wasn't a very good example for sharpness. The focus seems to be more on the forground in front of the soldiers in that scene - and the dust/smoke is pretty heavy - This might be a better example:
 
I really think you should be using a 16mm or 2/3inch lenses if you want to be shooting SD Cropped..
 
if George Lucas does it !
At lest we should try this technique before saying that is not professional.
 
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