RCX vs Davinci Resolve?

[Jonathan Pears]

This could have been discussed elsewhere, however i couldn't find the answer to this...

In what circumstances would you use Davinci Resolve over Red Cine X in terms of simple grading?

I understand that when you want an extreme look, or power windows etc, then Davinci is very necessary. But where do the lines cross between reaching the limits of Red Cine X, and needing to go to Resolve?

Thanks

 

[jake blackstone]

I haven't used rcx in well over a year. I just can't think of a single instance why I would need to use rcx.
Oh yeah, I just though of two- to process Dragon material and to do GPU debayer. I suspect those two reasons will disappear very soon

 

[Nick Pasquariello]

I use both. But not for the same thing.

I find that adjusting metadata is much, much easier in RedCine-X. The tools are laid out better, and it's clearer, and there are more options. I can adjust all the same metadata in Resolve, but it feels clunkier.

However, everything that you do in RedCine-X affects the entire image. Every pixel is treated the same.

If you want to select just the skin tones, and treat them separately, you can't do that with just metadata. If you want to apply a vignette, you can't do that with metadata. If you want to do absolutely anything to some pixels more than others, you cannot do that with just metadata.

In other words: RCX is not grading software, nor is it designed to be. It is designed to be an amazing tool for looking at Red footage and adjusting the metadata. Even if all my footage is Red, 100%, I'd still always use Resolve to finish a project.

They are not the same kind of tool. It's like comparing a wrench to a bandsaw, and asking why you'd use one to cut a piece of wood and not the other.

 

[Marc Wielage]

In what circumstances would you use Davinci Resolve over Red Cine X in terms of simple grading?

I think RedCineX Pro can work fine as a source of a simple grade for offline editing. But I wouldn't consider that to be the right way to go for a final color correction. I also question what kind of monitor is being used for RCX, since I rarely see calibrated monitors being used on the set. Stuff like that is a lot easier to control in a dedicated color-correction room, as opposed to a DIT working very quickly on a set under stressful conditions.

 

[jake blackstone]

In today's environment one rarely have the opportunity to work with just a single camera type. More often you'll need to mix a few cameras. In that situation rcx is useless. Also do not forget, with Resolve you can do as much or as little as you wish, the choice is yours. Again, rcx gives you just the very little choice. And no, Resolve metadata adjustments are exactly the same as any other software, that uses Red SDK. Actually I'd like for Red to stick to it's own SDK, as rcx is the only software, that allows curve adjustments in metadata. Resolve and other software can read that setting, but it's impossible to adjust. Really annoying...

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Secondary correction is more then just power windows, I would never use anything else then a proper grading software for the finished look. Even for a normal look, secondary is necessary.

Also, DaVinci uses a 32bit workspace and GFX enhancements (though this will be added in the coming RCX)

 

[MichaelP]

Actually I'd like for Red to stick to it's own SDK, as rcx is the only software, that allows curve adjustments in metadata. Resolve and other software can read that setting, but it's impossible to adjust. Really annoying...

I'm not a day in, day out user of Premiere Pro CC, but I do have it and I could have sworn it had the full complement of parameters including curves one could manipulate as well as write back to the RMD. A very nice implementation of the SDK in my view for an NLE source settings scenario.


Michael

 

[Nick Pasquariello]

In today's environment one rarely have the opportunity to work with just a single camera type. More often you'll need to mix a few cameras. In that situation rcx is useless. Also do not forget, with Resolve you can do as much or as little as you wish, the choice is yours. Again, rcx gives you just the very little choice. And no, Resolve metadata adjustments are exactly the same as any other software, that uses Red SDK. Actually I'd like for Red to stick to it's own SDK, as rcx is the only software, that allows curve adjustments in metadata. Resolve and other software can read that setting, but it's impossible to adjust. Really annoying...

Just a clarification: I didn't say that Resolve metadata adjustments are different than those in RCX, I said that the interface is clunkier. In RCX, it's extremely quick and easy to create a one-light, save it as a "Look", select 13 out of 45 clips, and apply it to just those 13. In Resolve, you can adjust the metadata for the Clip, for the Project and . . . that's it. It's not as easy to share that metadata between a selection of Red clips.

Hence, I find it easier to open any Red clips I have in RCX, take 5 minutes to adjust metadata there, and then load into Resolve. Really quick and easy to clear out any curves, switch to RedLog Film, and check white balance.

 

[jake blackstone]

Just a clarification: I didn't say that Resolve metadata adjustments are different than those in RCX, I said that the interface is clunkier. In RCX, it's extremely quick and easy to create a one-light, save it as a "Look", select 13 out of 45 clips, and apply it to just those 13. In Resolve, you can adjust the metadata for the Clip, for the Project and . . . that's it. It's not as easy to share that metadata between a selection of Red clips.

Hence, I find it easier to open any Red clips I have in RCX, take 5 minutes to adjust metadata there, and then load into Resolve. Really quick and easy to clear out any curves, switch to RedLog Film, and check white balance.

Nick.
You're wrong on metadata adjustments. In Resolve you can select any clips you want to adjust the metadata, adjust it and hit apply. Done. No difference whatsoever. If you want to save the metadata settings for that "look", then just grab a still and apply that "look" to any, all or selection of shots. No difference whatsoever. Actually in Resolve you can select to apply the grade with the metadata or not. RCX... not so much. Seriously, there is not one thing, that you can do in RCX, that can't be done easier and faster in Resolve, none!
RCX has nothing, but metadata adjustments, hence bigger displays for the same adjustments. Resolve uses very small portion of it's screen estate for the very same adjustments.I repeat, there is no difference whatsoever between RCX and Resolve metadata adjustments with exception of curves (Resolve does curves with standard grading curves) and Resolve doesn't use non standard Vibrance(?), like RCX does. I can't remember it's name now.

 

[Nick Pasquariello]

Jake, I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying I find it less clunky to do so in RCX than Resolve. Some of it is indescribable feel. Some of it is comfort level (I've been using RXC much longer than Resolve).

Some of it is the wonkyness of control scheme; I use only a keyboard and mouse currently. To adjust the ISO in Resolve, I click and drag left and right. However, the "slider" is invisible and set up weirdly linearly/logarithmically. So, let's say that to go from 320 ISO to 400 ISO I move my mouse, say, 1 inch. To go from 400 to 640, I move the mouse 3 inches. To go from 1280 ISO to 2000 ISO I move the mouse 9 inches. So one "notch" or ISO is never the same amount of mouse movement. The most annoying part, is that if I adjust the ISO downward, the "notches" snap closer together, so whereas 320 ---> 400 is an inch, 400 ---> 320 is half an inch, so I routinely overshoot it and end up at 50. It is incredibly hard for me to properly dial in the ISO in Resolve. It just is.

I also like having the ability to have a baseline set in RXC, and then if I want to, create an adjustment in Resolve and swap back and forth between the two in Resolve. So, go into RCX, wipe my curves, set white balance, set to RedLog Film, great, save RMD. Load into Resolve, hmm, know what, I want to try tint the white balance a little green, so let's set that in the Clip settings . . . let's A/B that by using the dropdown to switch between the RMD and the Resolve Clip settings. Yes there are other ways to do this (Versioning, or simply loading different looks back and forth) but I like to do it this way.

It's a personal preference thing. *I* find it easier to adjust metadata in RCX. I do not expect everyone to find it easier as well.

 

[Kevin Marshall]

Nick.
You're wrong on metadata adjustments. In Resolve you can select any clips you want to adjust the metadata, adjust it and hit apply. Done. No difference whatsoever. If you want to save the metadata settings for that "look", then just grab a still and apply that "look" to any, all or selection of shots. No difference whatsoever. Actually in Resolve you can select to apply the grade with the metadata or not. RCX... not so much. Seriously, there is not one thing, that you can do in RCX, that can't be done easier and faster in Resolve, none!
RCX has nothing, but metadata adjustments, hence bigger displays for the same adjustments. Resolve uses very small portion of it's screen estate for the very same adjustments.I repeat, there is no difference whatsoever between RCX and Resolve metadata adjustments with exception of curves (Resolve does curves with standard grading curves) and Resolve doesn't use non standard Vibrance(?), like RCX does. I can't remember it's name now.

I've liked using REDCINE on occasion to do things like batch-set color space/gamma and white balance. I like it because I can make adjustments to multiple parameters, but then only copy the ones I want over - say I've adjusted color space, gamma, white balance, tint, and ISO on a shot, but only want to copy over my gamma space change to the rest of the clips. I haven't seen an obvious way to do this in Resolve - as the "Apply settings to all selected clips" copies over all of he metadata, including things I haven't changed, and "Apply changes to selected clips" never seems to do anything. My most common use is batch-changing all of the footage from REDGamma3 to RedLogFilm, and batch-applying white balance settings within a scene. Is there a way to do this in Resolve?

As far as "Vibrance" goes, it's not necessarily standard in grading applications yet, but it's in many stills applications, like Photoshop and Lightroom. That, along with Clarity, are tools I think would be very useful in Resolve. The effects can be achieved with the existing tools, but I wouldn't mind having a dedicated control for them.

 

[jake blackstone]

I've liked using REDCINE on occasion to do things like batch-set color space/gamma and white balance. I like it because I can make adjustments to multiple parameters, but then only copy the ones I want over - say I've adjusted color space, gamma, white balance, tint, and ISO on a shot, but only want to copy over my gamma space change to the rest of the clips. I haven't seen an obvious way to do this in Resolve - as the "Apply settings to all selected clips" copies over all of he metadata, including things I haven't changed, and "Apply changes to selected clips" never seems to do anything. My most common use is batch-changing all of the footage from REDGamma3 to RedLogFilm, and batch-applying white balance settings within a scene. Is there a way to do this in Resolve?

As far as "Vibrance" goes, it's not necessarily standard in grading applications yet, but it's in many stills applications, like Photoshop and Lightroom. That, along with Clarity, are tools I think would be very useful in Resolve. The effects can be achieved with the existing tools, but I wouldn't mind having a dedicated control for them.

Kevin.
You need to read the manual again, as you clearly do not know the difference between "apply changes at all selected clips" and "apply settings at all selected clips". Once you do, you'll see, that Resolve does just what you described with "apply changes at all selected clips". It's not software's fault, if you do not read the manual

 

[jake blackstone]

Jake, I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying I find it less clunky to do so in RCX than Resolve. Some of it is indescribable feel. Some of it is comfort level (I've been using RXC much longer than Resolve).

Some of it is the wonkyness of control scheme; I use only a keyboard and mouse currently. To adjust the ISO in Resolve, I click and drag left and right. However, the "slider" is invisible and set up weirdly linearly/logarithmically. So, let's say that to go from 320 ISO to 400 ISO I move my mouse, say, 1 inch. To go from 400 to 640, I move the mouse 3 inches. To go from 1280 ISO to 2000 ISO I move the mouse 9 inches. So one "notch" or ISO is never the same amount of mouse movement. The most annoying part, is that if I adjust the ISO downward, the "notches" snap closer together, so whereas 320 ---> 400 is an inch, 400 ---> 320 is half an inch, so I routinely overshoot it and end up at 50. It is incredibly hard for me to properly dial in the ISO in Resolve. It just is.

I also like having the ability to have a baseline set in RXC, and then if I want to, create an adjustment in Resolve and swap back and forth between the two in Resolve. So, go into RCX, wipe my curves, set white balance, set to RedLog Film, great, save RMD. Load into Resolve, hmm, know what, I want to try tint the white balance a little green, so let's set that in the Clip settings . . . let's A/B that by using the dropdown to switch between the RMD and the Resolve Clip settings. Yes there are other ways to do this (Versioning, or simply loading different looks back and forth) but I like to do it this way.

It's a personal preference thing. *I* find it easier to adjust metadata in RCX. I do not expect everyone to find it easier as well.

Nick. if you want to change ISO from 200 to 400, just type it in, as in change 2 to 4 That's how I do it...
I fail to see your point in trying to advocate the use of two different pieces of software, where one- Resolve is clearly superior. I'm happy, that you don't need to use any other cameras, other than Red, but please remember, there is a big world out there with other cameras used, frequently on the same shoot. Frequently for whatever reason I have trouble conforming a job in Resolve and I don't need this trouble doubled...

 

[Kevin Marshall]

Kevin.
You need to read the manual again, as you clearly do not know the difference between "apply changes at all selected clips" and "apply settings at all selected clips". Once you do, you'll see, that Resolve does just what you described with "apply changes at all selected clips". It's not software's fault, if you do not read the manual

Though I have read the manual, I will sheepishly admit double-checking solved my problem. I wasn't selecting my group of clips prior to making the adjustments, but rather afterward.

Hey, after 640 pages, sometimes a word here or there gets jumbled.

 

[Matthew Scott]

However, everything that you do in RedCine-X affects the entire image. Every pixel is treated the same.

I don't mean to nit-pick because everything else you say here is true, just the above one isn't. Curves and the 3-way corrector are non-linear tools that enable you to adjust luma and chroma values of different pixels on the screen at once, by varying degrees. Granted they don't compare to a qualifier or mask, but yeah. Thought it was worth mentioning.

 

[Nick Pasquariello]

Nick. if you want to change ISO from 200 to 400, just type it in, as in change 2 to 4 That's how I do it...
I fail to see your point in trying to advocate the use of two different pieces of software, where one- Resolve is clearly superior. I'm happy, that you don't need to use any other cameras, other than Red, but please remember, there is a big world out there with other cameras used, frequently on the same shoot. Frequently for whatever reason I have trouble conforming a job in Resolve and I don't need this trouble doubled...

Regardless of whether or not my entire timeline is Red footage, I still open all my Red footage in RCX before going to Resolve; on my machine, RCX opens in about 5 seconds, and Resolve opens in about a minute. I can literally open RCX, adjust 50-100 clips using presets I already have built to wipe out curves and adjust to RedLog Film and then quit out, all in less time than it takes me to open up Resolve.

I'm not sure why you find what I'm saying so offensive, Jake. I've said this is my preference, and I've explained why it's my preference, now having provided multiple reasons why this is the optimal workflow for me given both my experience and my equipment. At no point have I said it's the only way, or the best way. At every point I've said that it's the way I prefer to work. Even if you take equipment and experience out of the equation, I've provided a useful, legitimate possibility why one might want to adjust metadata in RXC before coming into Resolve (it provides for one useful method of A/B'ing between sets of metadata [though, as I said before, and I'll say again: this isn't the only way to do so]).

I don't mean to nit-pick because everything else you say here is true, just the above one isn't. Curves and the 3-way corrector are non-linear tools that enable you to adjust luma and chroma values of different pixels on the screen at once, by varying degrees. Granted they don't compare to a qualifier or mask, but yeah. Thought it was worth mentioning.

Yes you can adjust only the red channel, or only the lows, etc. But every single pixel is treated as a pixel, regardless of its initial value or where in the image it lies. Meaning, as you said: no qualifiers. If there is no way to qualify one portion of an image, then I won't call a piece of software "grading software".

 

[jake blackstone]

Regardless of whether or not my entire timeline is Red footage, I still open all my Red footage in RCX before going to Resolve; on my machine, RCX opens in about 5 seconds, and Resolve opens in about a minute. I can literally open RCX, adjust 50-100 clips using presets I already have built to wipe out curves and adjust to RedLog Film and then quit out, all in less time than it takes me to open up Resolve.

I'm not sure why you find what I'm saying so offensive, Jake. I've said this is my preference, and I've explained why it's my preference, now having provided multiple reasons why this is the optimal workflow for me given both my experience and my equipment. At no point have I said it's the only way, or the best way. At every point I've said that it's the way I prefer to work. Even if you take equipment and experience out of the equation, I've provided a useful, legitimate possibility why one might want to adjust metadata in RXC before coming into Resolve (it provides for one useful method of A/B'ing between sets of metadata [though, as I said before, and I'll say again: this isn't the only way to do so]).

Nick.
Everyone does things the way they find more convenient and less convoluted. If you prefer to use RCX prior to use of Resolve more power to you. I'm not trying to change the way you do things. I'm just trying to understand your argument, that you'd rather use RCX to adjust metadata, rather than Resolve, which does that in the exact same way, just because RCX starts faster and Resolve's GUI is not as convenient for adjusting metadata as RCX's? Is that right? I want to make sure I understand your argument and I don't want to misstate anything here.

 

[Nick Pasquariello]

just because RCX starts faster and Resolve's GUI is not as convenient for adjusting metadata as RCX's? Is that right?

Primarily this. Though I wouldn't use the word "just" as it kind of implicates that a lot of what we all do to customize our workflows isn't for both speed and ease of use. Those are two pretty big reasons to form a workflow a certain way.

This is a workflow that I find better, and I'd be remiss if I didn't point out to others that it is an option. The changes to the image based on metadata adjustments in either RCX or Resolve are exactly the same; it's the same metadata getting the same adjustments. SO whether to use RXC and then Resolve, or wether to use just Resolve, that decision is not based on image quality. Only workflow. Since it's easier and faster for me ---> I use RXC and then Resolve for all Red footage.

 

[Pablo Moreno]

Check Min. 10:41

Even the pros at Hollywood use RedCineX first..

[/QUOTE]

 

[Nick Pasquariello]

Check Min. 10:41

Even the pros at Hollywood use RedCineX first..

[/QUOTE]

Not entirely analogous. First, I think this was filmed 2 years ago? At least one. Resolve has come a long way in that time, especially for on-set duties. Granted, there was still Scratch, and other tools.

In addition, though, the needs of on-set are different than the needs of final grading. It's rare that you would want to qualify things on-set. Some people in post want things to look as good as possible straight from the beginning (before then wiping the slate clean and starting the grade from scratch). Others want things to look kinda . . . washed out and off. Why? Well, when you have a client that likes to wait until the last minute and rush things out the door, if the image looks OK they might forget that grading needs to happen. By keeping the image blatantly lackluster, they can't forget to give you the time to grade at the end. If that sounds either silly or disingenuous, know that starting post with a washed out image was, we found after much trial and error, the only way to get a certain repeat client to remember to reserve time for the grade at the end.

Anyway, if you're never going to qualify on set, then even if your workflow time is the same between Resolve and RCX, having more screen real-estate for the metadata tools is probably enough of an argument to use it. Oh, and wasn't version 8 of Resolve not as good about syncing audio? I've got a feeling that's the case with a lot of grading software, yeah? If you need to sync audio to your video before shipping it off to post, well, there's another reason. Version 10 of Resolve is going to add a bunch of features for on-set work. I won't be shocked to find myself using it more on set in the next year than the last. If the control scheme for Red metadata stuff gets less clunky/wonky for me, then that's a sure bet.