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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RAW RULES and 720/1080 debate

I agree with Jim and the rest who have said that recording at the best possible resolution and downsampling for whatever current deliverables you need is the best option. We just produced Nelly Furtado's latest video on 35mm and delivered to MTV AND VH1 on Beta. Why NOT start with the best acquisition format and then dumb down to whatever format you need to? This is what we've always done at great cost until now.
 
tj williams said:
HI Jim
Welcome to WA, SanJuan Island? don't worry soon the sunny days will end and we will get our beautiful fog and rain back.
I'm not sure I understand these issues well. I hope someone at RED can make authoritive answers:

1. It seem no matter what we shoot it will have to be converted to another codec to fit onto the clients timeline. Will conversion of 1080 RGB or 2K convert more quickly with less computation time to one of the other codecs used on client time lines? (ie Panasonic/Sony/FC/ codecs.)
Don't have enough accurate info yet... still developing.

2. Will 2K Raw in the one build be both windowed and scaled? Will RGB be available only full sensor?
The long term plan is 2K windowed and scaled. RGB answers in a few weeks.

3. Will 2K raw actually use less Mb per sec than 1080 RGB at the same frame rates?
It is likely.

4. If we deliver 1080 RGB to a client how will he be able to preview the footage? Can this footage also be seen as Quick time?
Answer in a few weeks.

5. If we deliver 2K raw will the client be able to preview the footage using Quick time?
Absolutely.
Click to expand...

We have the REDCODE RAW (2K or 4K) paths in full development with Apple.

Stay tuned for more info.

Jim
 
So, were transcode times ever posted? I couldn't make it past the first four pages of this redundant rant of a thread. Finner had asked for transcode times and workflow breakdowns? Did anyone ever post a response?
 
SF Geek said:
So, were transcode times ever posted? I couldn't make it past the first four pages of this redundant rant of a thread. Finner had asked for transcode times and workflow breakdowns? Did anyone ever post a response?
Click to expand...

We are reluctant to post transcode times because the code has not been optimized yet.

Jim
 
"2. Will 2K Raw in the one build be both windowed and scaled? Will RGB be available only full sensor?
"The long term plan is 2K windowed and scaled. RGB answers in a few weeks.""

This is very promising for many users, including us, although I'm excited to convince clients as well as our editors to just do 4k Red Code Raw (RcR?). We have plans that include our bread and butter national AND regional commercial work with SD deliverables as well as feature film projects.
 
Jannard said:
We have the REDCODE RAW (2K or 4K) paths in full development with Apple.

Stay tuned for more info.

Jim
Click to expand...

Jannard said:
We are reluctant to post transcode times because the code has not been optimized yet.

Jim
Click to expand...

Damn, not even semi-worst case scenarios with appropriate disclaimers? :shifty:

Edit: just because it would obviously be helpful in discussing our future workflow shift, if even in abstract terms
 
If there was sixteen gigs of footage left on CF at the end of the day, would it be reasonable to assume that it could be transcoded into 1080 or 720 DVCPRO HD within an hour with a preset gamma and CC? No extra CC work. On a New Macbook Pro? I know there are many factors, but with say a fast CF reader and a firewire 800 driv,e is an hour doable?
 
To be clear, the 4k RC RAW we've shot with RED One in both 3D and 2D has been stunning. I love the 4k RC RAW workflow, in the field and in post. For me, that's not in question, and the RAW workflow is a familiar one from my DSLR work. I'll shoot a ton of 4k with RED One when the nature of each project determines that is the best choice for it.

That said, I work in a broad array of genres and sub-genres, and though good aesthetics are a given no matter what the genre, there are certain types of projects that 4k, shallow DOF, and/or RAW simply isn't the best choice. That's where the ability to quickly upload a different build would be amazingly helpful.

720p may go away sometime relatively soon, but I would guess that 1080p is going to be with us for some time to come. If scaled 2k RC RAW becomes a reality in a future 4k/2k build, then IMO 1080p scaled from the whole sensor then becomes pretty redundant.

Either way, thanks for listening to our opinions...
 
SF Geek said:
If there was sixteen gigs of footage left on CF at the end of the day, would it be reasonable to assume that it could be transcoded into 1080 or 720 DVCPRO HD within an hour with a preset gamma and CC? No extra CC work. On a New Macbook Pro? I know there are many factors, but with say a fast CF reader and a firewire 800 driv,e is an hour doable?
Click to expand...

That sounds reasonable after we optimize...

Jim
 
Hi JimThanks for the quick answer, look forward to finding out, other discussion changed my mind about RGB necessity when 2K windowed and scaled and QT playback were announced!
Hope you are having fun in WA
TJ
 
It seems we need to separate the immediate needs from future needs.

At this moment, 720/1080 aquisition is important, film is still being used and only Red Alert and Scratch can handle Red Raw.

The future will be different for sure, the question is how different.
 
Thomas Mathai said:
The future will be different for sure, the question is how different.
Click to expand...

Very different. Do you remember what happened in fashion photography when digital-backs came out?

Overnight, that world went digtal. It all changed. Very fast. Large format still photography became - how many megapixles?

This little camera is opening a door many have been banging on for a long time.
 
Jannard said:
Mark is right. Once you really shoot 4K and see how easy it is to deliver 4K, 2K, 4K stills, 1080P and 720P from the 4K (and keep a 4K master for future proofing), you will just not want to bother shooting a smaller format.
Click to expand...
Jim,

I can't see any reason one would voluntarily shoot 2K/1080 with RED if all things were equal. But until we can shoot offspeed in 4K, having a "smaller format" option is a glaring necessity, don't you think?

Häakon
 
offhollywood said:
Very different. Do you remember what happened in fashion photography when digital-backs came out?

Overnight, that world went digtal. It all changed. Very fast. Large format still photography became - how many megapixles?

This little camera is opening a door many have been banging on for a long time.
Click to expand...

Well maybe photography changed over night but digital videocam's did not. Remember first time I saw Digicam footage.."That does not look good!...". And most that I talked to agreed. I wanted to keep shooting Betacam becasue it looked and feeled much better. Than came the next generations with better codecs and we had a whole different situation. I feel Red is in that situation.

Red is not the door opener nor the start of a digital revolution IMO. Its more like the next of something new that is worthy to be called a revolution :).

Viper=Alpha Genesis=Beta Red=finished product

Im talking about digital vs film if someone wondered.
 
Jannard said:
We are doing two builds to show we are listening to our customers. If you are one of the people that absolutely needs, wants and will use the HD options, then we have done our job. But a year from now, I'm going to bet $5 (cash poor right now) that these boards will be talking about... "remember when RED was a scam? And remember when we all wanted 720P? What were we thinking?"
Jim
Click to expand...

Hey Jim,

Thanks for the feedback. I'm wondering if 2K Scaled Redcode RAW will be part of the 2K/4K build?

IBloom
 
Ibloom

2. Will 2K Raw in the one build be both windowed and scaled? Will RGB be available only full sensor?

"The long term plan is 2K windowed and scaled. RGB answers in a few weeks."
as Jim posted in post #122 this thread.

RED Crew.
For a lot of immediate projects which will be finished in HD on pre intel macs, by some of my clients I think 2K Raw shooting at a lower data rate combined with the ability to do slomo will be very appealing. The ability to switch from
scaled to windowed will work for me much as our current HD camera allows me to use the lens doubler. The slightly larger size of 2K as compared to HD will allow some stabilizing where needed and some repositioning. Downsampling from 2K to HD in the SI camera produces a very nice image, not all that much different from the 4K downsamples I've seen posted so far. This will be a very appealing package of features for quite a few of the folks I work for.
TJ
 
tj williams said:
2. Will 2K Raw in the one build be both windowed and scaled? Will RGB be available only full sensor?

"The long term plan is 2K windowed and scaled. RGB answers in a few weeks."
as Jim posted in post #122 this thread.

RED Crew.
For a lot of immediate projects which will be finished in HD on pre intel macs, by some of my clients I think 2K Raw shooting at a lower data rate combined with the ability to do slomo will be very appealing. The ability to switch from
scaled to windowed will work for me much as our current HD camera allows me to use the lens doubler. The slightly larger size of 2K as compared to HD will allow some stabilizing where needed and some repositioning. Downsampling from 2K to HD in the SI camera produces a very nice image, not all that much different from the 4K downsamples I've seen posted so far. This will be a very appealing package of features for quite a few of the folks I work for.
TJ
Click to expand...

For the work you describe TJ, 2K RC RAW scaled and windowed, if both were available, would be a good solution. If you're using 2/3" HD zooms or 2/3" HD cine lenses for that, RED has verified that the RED B4 adaptor (and the Abakas adaptor) will cover 2k, and that the results of their testing of that setup were very good.

As I posted earlier in this thread, when scaled (not windowed) 2k RC RAW is available on RED One, then 1080p sampled from the entire sensor would become expendable.

I work in many of the same genres as you do, thus I've been exploring the same field workflow options. Whenever possible, I'll shoot 4k RC RAW - but there are some genres, applications, and field workflow situations that simply call for either scaled 2k RC RAW or 1080p sampled from the entire sensor.
 
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