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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RAW RULES and 720/1080 debate

augenmensch aka therock said:
I don't expect a big difference between Red Alert and RedCine.
Click to expand...

There probably will be. Big big architectural differences between the two programs. Biggest thing would be that REDCINE uses GPU for processing while RED Alert! does not. There are a host of other differences between the two as well.

In the end I'm very very focussed on optimizing things and increasing performance, but that takes a while.
 
offhollywood said:
Can we get a FIRMWARE VERSION that let's us shoot black and white only too?
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HAHAHAHA....Mark. I love this. It's true all of the "other" formats mentioned in this forum exist, so why don't people just go and shoot with those formats if they want to. Get a super 8, (film or video) and shoot the lights out, if that is what you need. Don't expect RED to be that!

The only issue to me is overcranking. That's it! If i wanted to shoot lower resolutions I would, but why would I ask the best to downgrade. I think if they did 60FPS in 4K (which i think is possible) I'm not sure I'd ever leave 4K.

I think you are right. People are being nostalgic. This is the wave, ride it!

Keep the posts coming. Let's be friends.


David
 
augenmensch aka therock said:
Which Flame version are you referring to ? Thats been longer ago then there was a Scratch.
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Thats a bit of the point... everyone has a different version, and a lot post houses are running on different hardware as well. Also beyond that working in dpx or Tiff in my opinion offers less range than a RAW workflow due to the nature of the beast. Granted the only comparable workflow I can offer as comparison is Phantom/Iridas , in that case how you grade the material is based on the debayer. Also in the case of Red its a lot cheaper computationally and in terms of storage to go with such a methodolgy.
 
I got tired of reading so I hope this isn't a dupe but:

Flame 2008:
32bit File compatibility
Open File Architecture (moving even further from stone to the point that non-stone solutions are now viable) (supposedly)
Expanded compatibility with common Timelines (aka FinalCut XML and Avid OMF)
And no mention of any hardware options except linux so all x86 now.
 
quick wrap-up of tidbits in my head:

-to the guy that mentioned B&W films and Good Night & Good Luck - if memory serves, that was shot on F900 HD and desaturated to get the B&W.

-to the person scared about flat images on set to client - doesn't have to be - we proved it tonight.

It's allllll good.

I figured out a new image manipulation trick and got some results that were WOAH, MOMMA good. Was on unreleasable footage (for now), but will try again on releasable footage later.

-mike
 
MikeCurtis said:
quick wrap-up of tidbits in my head:

-to the guy that mentioned B&W films and Good Night & Good Luck - if memory serves, that was shot on F900 HD and desaturated to get the B&W.

-to the person scared about flat images on set to client - doesn't have to be - we proved it tonight.

It's allllll good.

I figured out a new image manipulation trick and got some results that were WOAH, MOMMA good. Was on unreleasable footage (for now), but will try again on releasable footage later.

-mike
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hi Mike

re. applying 'reassurance' looks to your monitor image on set, I guess you use Red Alert (and later Red Cine)? How exactly is that set up and connected? Does it mean a laptop connected to the camera?

cheers

james
 
>Good Night & Good Luck - if memory serves, that was shot on F900 HD <

Not to disrupt the flow of the argument, but I'm almost certain that it was shot on film. But whatever. Carry-on.
 
MikeCurtis said:
quick wrap-up of tidbits in my head:

-to the guy that mentioned B&W films and Good Night & Good Luck - if memory serves, that was shot on F900 HD and desaturated to get the B&W.

I figured out a new image manipulation trick and got some results that were WOAH, MOMMA good. Was on unreleasable footage (for now), but will try again on releasable footage later.

-mike
Click to expand...

Good night and good luck was shot on color film then destaturated in the DI

How about some more info about this image manipulation. I would love for someone to give their experience with a basic explanation of workflow. Just basic for now. And I agree with the excellent post by augenmensch aka the rock, a simple test to a 1080 image sequence and the time it takes would put this to rest.
 
but using a CF card means recording an image, taking to laptop, importing image and taking a look.

What i mean is realtime manipulation of an image on the monitor for previsualization (potentially using a pre made 'look'); something akin to the use of speedgrade (if I understand correctly) on the Silicon Graphics camera interface.

james
 
jamesedwelland said:
What i mean is realtime manipulation of an image on the monitor for previsualization (potentially using a pre made 'look'); something akin to the use of speedgrade (if I understand correctly) on the Silicon Graphics camera interface.

james
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james - I can do that directly in the cameras now - the only thing I am missing RIGHT NOW (it is coming soon)- is the ability to LOAD IN a pre-made "look" - and that is coming soon.
 
So there you are ...lets say on a set...you have the 720 feed to the monitor. You want to see what your set looks like with a bit of a grade rather than the raw footage. The camera is way over there, so obviously you want to do a quick grade (or apply a preset and preloaded look) right now, where you are in front of the monitor with the director and gaffer lets say. How do you do that? Laptop with a long USB to the camera? Or can you plug the HDMI into a laptop with Redcine loaded and do it there? (and how long can that HDMI cable be?

cheers

james
 
I'm with Mark. Unless you have an immediate deadline delivery situation, not shooting 4K is just limiting your options. Even if you're only delivering 1080p, it's great to have the room to losslessly crop or pan and scan to alter the feel of the shot without having to re-shoot. The ability to losslessly stabilize in post alone is worth shooting in 4K. I also think that unless you've experienced the flexibility of using an over-sample image, like using a 10mp file for a website or a 22mp file for a 4x5 print image, you just don't know what you're missing. If you have a shot where the focus is a little soft, you can downsample and sharpen so that it's perfectly usable. You also have a little more flexibility in situation where you're losing light. If you're shooting delivery resolution, you're mostly stuck with the noise/grain you've captured. If you start from a 4K file, a little noise reduction and down sampling will be able to clean the footage up to a point where noise is no longer an issue.

Giving this extra flexibility to your client in post is going to be a huge advantage that they are very quickly not going to want to live without.
 
"do a quick grade (or apply a preset and preloaded look) right now, where you are in front of the monitor with the director and gaffer "

i think you can load in a couple LUT's ( into camera) and switch between them ...
shouldn't that be the Director & DP ( not gaffer) in front of the monitor ...
and IMO never light by what you see on the on set monitor ( maybe if you are recording RGB) ...
 
I’ve been on the road heavily using RED #8 lately and haven’t had much time to visit RED User. Here are my thoughts on this thread:

In mid-August there was a flurry of threads debating the inclusion/exclusion of 1080p and 720p as recording formats. Jim had announced that he was considering eliminating 1080p and 720p as recording formats. After some heated exchanges by both sides of the issue, Jim made this thread-starting post:

“In the last topic about 1080P/720P, someone posted the idea about two builds that could be loaded independently of each other. That idea has solved a problem for us and we will, in fact, use that idea going forward.”

Jim Jannard
8/20/07
RED User
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3789&page=3

I support that choice by Jim. His post on that doesn't lock RED into having to do that - all things are subject to change. I think having two builds that could be loaded independently of each other is wisdom on a number of levels. Flexibility, broad utility, and scalability have been the mantra of RED from the beginning. I see the option of two loadable builds being the logical evolution of those original concepts.

For the sake of time and space I’ll go on record again saying I support the idea that Jim mentioned. If someone wants to dig up all the counterpoints that me, Haakon, and many others made in support of keeping at least 1080p as a recording format, a simple search of RED User will reveal the points we made in those threads.

I can appreciate that Offhollywood is enthusiastic about 4k and shooting RAW. I am too. I received #8 the same day as Offhollywood received their cameras, plus I also received #13 for Billy Summers, an associate of GibCor. Since then we’ve done the well-publicized RED 4k 3D testing with our production partners at Paradise FX, with the awesome support of Assimilate using their Scratch system, and ever since we’ve been shooting 2D test footage of a variety of subject matter and styles with #8. All this shooting has been in 4k RC RAW because that is the only choice in the partially enabled camera at present. The results have been excellent and we share the enthusiasm about shooting 4k RC RAW with RED One.

Those of us who have been shooting RAW with DSLR systems for a long time know the creative freedom and options that a RAW workflow enables. It’s not news to us, and that is one of the main reasons that we’ve been supporting RED from the beginning.

I work in a broad range of cine-style and EFP style genres and sub-genres. All my clients aren’t clamoring for 4k origination – many are, but some aren’t. The EFP industry is the largest single portion of the motion media industry and vast numbers of EFP entities are potential adopters of RED One. Some of them would use 4k, some would use 2k, some would be highly interested in using 1080p, and some will use every one of those.

From the beginning I’ve viewed RED One as a tool that could be easily adapted for virtually any genre or sub-genre of cine style and EFP style production. Two builds available for independent download, changeable for different project needs, would be a brilliant way of maintaining the flexibility, utility, and scalability that RED has espoused from the beginning.

Using CF with RED One is a no-brainer to me for most of what I do. I’ve been using CF for my DSLR work in RAW for a long time now. Once the storage capacity is increased to 16GB, then 32GB and onward, even long-form work with RED One will be facilitated easily. I’ll still get the RED drive when its available, for use in certain field workflows and conditions.

RED vs film? REDCODE RAW is REDCODE RAW and film is film. Both have their own aesthetic qualities and uses. For reasons of familiarity, tradition, and specifically sought aesthetics, I’m sure film will be around for a long time to come. But the “look” of RED footage, with its lack of grain and creative options in a RAW workflow, is not only here to stay, but IMO will flourish in the industry.

We’re all part of the RED family of adopters and enthusiasts – that’s why we spend so much time here. That said, does everyone in a family agree on everything? Of course not! I respectfully disagree with Offhollywood’s position on the question of two builds for RED One. I know Mark Pederson, I received my RED camera the same day as he did, and I’ve done extensive shooting and analysis ever since, just like he has. My conclusions on the two builds issue are different than his, and I don’t see the benefit to this community of re-hashing issues that were resolved a month ago on RED User, leading to the compromise mentioned by Jim of a two builds concept that simultaneously retained the utility and flexibility of RED One – and healed the divisions in this community over that issue.
 
Phil Bates said:
Loved your post Mark. Regardless of all the arguements back and forth, your enthusiasm is inspiring.

Phil
www.artbeats.com
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Thanks Phil. Fear not, I'm gonna keep posting as long as this website exists and I am on this planet - unless you all vote me off - see below -

This is a Forum for people interested in RED. Jim made a choice based on the VOICE of Redusers. All those REDUSERS were not using REDs yet. Now some are. I just thought it was relevant to discuss again.

This forum lets us express our thoughts and experiences as RED ... USERS.

My personality is not for everyone. Some people don't like me. Some people don't like Jim Jannard. I can't speak for Jim, but personally, I am not going to loose any sleep because people don't want to hear what I have to say, or what I think.

As I said in my post, all the DEBATE was before ANYONE outside of Red and BETA testers were shooting REDCODE Raw. I chose to "REHASH" and express MY opinions, (free speech and all), because I had been giving demonstrations to all types of different clients. I actually expected that some would NOT want 4K. They ALL wanted 4K after I gave them a demostration of the power of the different workflows.

RED can make 100 firmware builds for all I care. It won't change my OPINION - which is - it's a WASTE OF TIME to enable 720 and 1080 record on this camera. I will NEVER EVER EVER use it.

I'm just sayin' - faster than any of you may think - your clients are going to INSIST on 4K RC archieved "camera negative".

PS - If a MAJORITY of you are sick of me posting - or sick of my "enthusiam" - all it will take make me go away is a POLL - REDUSERS around the world - you can always vote me off of this forum - I'll stop talking when you stop listening.
 
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