RAW RULES and 720/1080 debate

[tj williams]

Hi OffHollywood
I loved the earlier suggestion by RED team of a 2K windowed 2K full sensor and 4 K full sensor modes. This combined with proxy in QT seems to address the need for higher frame rates and situations where we deliver into a clients existing edit scheme. The previous RGB originally intended to address these problems seems now less workable than this suggestion.

Ie the other shooters used Varicams or HDcams whatever where we are only shooting some of larger segments shot by teams who are usually geographically separated. When you discuss workflow can you discuss situations like this which are common for shooters working outside NY/LA.

 

[Keith Nealy]

Mark, you are on the "bleeding edge" of this revolution

Mark, you are on the "bleeding edge" of this revolution

Mark and Mike - thank you for taking the time to share your passion. for those of us waiting in the wings it is very reassuring.

Mark, what you are saying is very important and valid. I think many people who are only thinking of their present needs (and those they perceive of their clients) may come around when they see what you've seen and experienced what you have with potential clients.

I think what you are saying is that if we are really a part of this revolution we must be the front lines with clients and hlod their hand as we take them into the "Brave New world" and teach them what possibilities lie ahead in 4K land and how easy it is to get there.

Having had a studio in manhattan for 30 years I know the audience you were dealing with but many people outside of the major metros and in other markets - ENG/EfP etc, still think in contemporaty terms and only look to incremental changes to make their life better.

RED is "one giant leap for mankind" that many people still don't comprehend yet.

Don't let the naysayers dampen your passion for you are on the "bleeding edge" of this revolution and it is lonely at the top.

Thanks for sharing your passion and all of your hard work doing the tests. You do us all a great service and I have no doubt that it will come back to you in spades.

aloha,

Keith

 

[Daniel Reichenbach]

Thank you offhollywood for your comments on RED and the workflow, I am totally agree with you, I haven't had the possibility to have my RED 222 in hands, but as fare as I have seen, a well exposed "flat" RAW 4K image will do the job. The rest you do in the color correction. And you're right: why shooting 2K,1080 when you can shoot 4K. There are just a few arguments: run and gun, no focus puller, slow mo. 720 is no choice for RED.

 

[Michael Brennan]

Blinkers off

Blinkers off

As a 4k pixel RAW recording camera RED looks like a winner.
But this discussion is not addressing the (probable) wider scope of uses that attracted RED buyers, namely

1/ the benifits of a camera with highest possible frame rate at resonable TV resolution
2/ assumes that the camera has no role other than one that requires post processing to have a useable image.


1/ IMHO 90% of TV producers will trade 25% increase in frame rate for a drop in resolution. On a slomo shoot up to a point there is no subsitute for temperal resolution.

No matter what frame rate 2k can be run at, 720p will always be higher.
Keeping 120fps offers slightly more creative scope in shooting. A good selling point to win jobs.


2/ The other feature of the camera that was in the original spec which has not been adressed in this discussion is using the HDSDI 1080p output from the camera, ie using the camera as a TV camera. How about a live concert with 35mm DoF? Live keying? Using the camera as Remote head and recording at a distance?


I wonder that if 1080p recording is dropped so will the ability to use the 1080p HDSDI output other than monitoring, one with low delay and that is full spec.


Hopefully this will not be the case.

In any event some RED buyers/users will trade on the snob value of having a camera that "doesn't do TV formats" It is not the most creative business or technical approach to distance oneself from the cameras heritage and build walls where there should be bridges.



Mike Brennan

 

[Fix]

Red one is a cinema camera. Not tv ENG style. If you buy a REDONE for ENG shooting than you need to strugle with it IMO. And thats why some people don't buy it.

Seems like many wants to shoot with RED and directly smack the footage into a TV. How many movies/tv series/comersials/indies etc etc are made like that?

IMO Mark hits the nail right where he should. on the sweet spot. Record 4k EFP flat, edit/grade. Out to 4k/2K/1080p/720P/480P.

Now... Record 720p in 120fps seems fantastic but even better is 2k 100fps. Think about it. 4k 60fps (RAW), 2k 100fps, high dynamic camera for 17000$ that beats s35mm?! Jim allready told there is a limit. I think they have surpassed hell by now. Ask Panavision/Dalsa/SI/Sony/Panasonic etc etc.

And ones again REDONE is a cinema camera...

 

[Curran Giddens]

Hey all - my take on all this, since I've been side by side with Mark on every shoot - everyone that has seen this stuff lights up when you show them the 4K........

OK, that's enough of a rant for now.

-mike

Great post Mike! This one is definitely going in my archives.

 

[Michael Brennan]

Smack the footage

Smack the footage

Red one is a cinema camera. Not tv ENG style. If you buy a REDONE for ENG shooting than you need to strugle with it IMO. And thats why some people don't buy it.

Seems like many wants to shoot with RED and directly smack the footage into a TV. How many movies/tv series/comersials/indies etc etc are made like that?

IMO Mark hits the nail right where he should. on the sweet spot. Record 4k EFP flat, edit/grade. Out to 4k/2K/1080p/720P/480P.

Now... Record 720p in 120fps seems fantastic but even better is 2k 100fps. Think about it. 4k 60fps (RAW), 2k 100fps, high dynamic camera for 17000$ that beats s35mm?! Jim allready told there is a limit. I think they have surpassed hell by now. Ask Panavision/Dalsa/SI/Sony/Panasonic etc etc.

And ones again REDONE is a cinema camera...

No one has suggested in this thread it is a ENG camera.
100fps@2k is better than 120fps@720p for slomo? apples and oranges

I don't understand why you end your post with "REDONE is a cinema camera" when you mention its use for TV commercials and drama.

We can do what we want with it and if it gets the feature set Jim originally envisaged it would be a better tool for the many(?) that do want to smack it into a TV.


Mike Brennan

 

[conrad gaunt]

Hello everybody
Can`t wait to get my ion cannon.
I`d like to tell you what impressed me about the Red One. I ordered one almost as soon as I heard about them (after reading the specs., and negotiating a big "lend"). Was it those big mighty rectangles boasting that they were stronger and bigger than the little 720p and DV oblongs?
Answer is, NO!!!
Here`s a list of the main reasons I ordered a Red, LEAST IMPORTANT FIRST.

1) Resolution (least important factor)- Not that important to me, many UK "digital" cinemas project 2k, so cool. Not where my stuff is going. 4K is obviously very cool. Frankly 1080 would be cool with the cameras other features, and I would have ordered one at that. I like having lower res. options, because I`m planning on long term archiving of unedited footage.
The fact is I nearly bought a Silicon Imaging 2k cine camera, only price swung it, and to be fair they have great software bundles/codecs/cameras available today etc, plus amazing 12bit workflows, so I could argue a questionable decision, unless Red deliver (I`m not worried). Resolution is only a small part of the revolution in my opinion. Actually, if you get a regular 35mm photo print (not cine film) and scan it at about 12k using a flatbed scanner, I think you`d find scanning at 12k wasn`t a waste of time. I don`t personally care much for film grain though.

2) Storing raw bayer data -
This is nice to know. Storing bayer pattern is about three times smaller than storing an image thats been converted to RGB or YUV (we`ll be doing that in post now, not in camera or before compression),
3) Wavelet compression -
This is important. State of the art = Vastly increased compression + vastly decreased artifacts (as image isn`t compressed in DCT segments) + don`t need a mega raid to record high res. RAW images. Combine that with the efficiency of storing only the bayer data (see above point), and ability to do partial decompression (for previewing), and then remember how quickly the processing power of micro computers has increased in the last ten years, and, hey presto, let the good times roll, and roll and roll (wow this is much cheaper than film already, and roll and roll..., wow the camera just paid for itself.. and roll)

4) Using a bayer sensor and proper lens -
This is important. Allows use of cine lens. Digital cameras that use three sensor systems struggle with DOF effects, and can`t work with proper cine lens (traditional cine cameras don`t have three seperate films being exposed at once, so their lens can be used by a bayer)

5) 12bit Colour depth - This is the selling point for me. This is the small jump that made me believe, it means a huge amount of latitude in post production to change/correct image properties. In other words, this is an image that can be manipulated by filmmakers (a lot), not the `perceptually` excellent looking XDCAM footage (best left mostly alone). No more "red green blue apartheit". It will be nice to see a blue channel that hasn`t been digitally raped, and a red channel for that matter too. This is the reason I had to rule out buying an XDCAM (which is a "discovery channel approved" HD camera, according to my sources)

Thats it. So all I need to do now is work out how to pull focus before this sexy number arrives. The extra resolution may re-ignite my interest in sfx (but only if focus pulling goes badly, and only when I`ve timelapsed yorkshire in its entirety). I will be developing effect software aimed at 12bit 4k footage, which frankly I couldn`t be bothered to do for 24bit/YUV/DV footage.

er,
I suppose I could kill more time, while I wait for the Red One, by sending my Canon 10D DSLR back and asking them, again, why/how the camera sensor has managed to completely disappear (even though I never change the lens, and is therefore sealed inside the camera body, and the camera has never been dropped etc) whenever I use the interval timer switch (that they sold me), for more than a few weeks. Don`t some people have old fashioned SLR cameras that still work after many decades of use? Last time it happened they said "How can the sensor just disappear?", I said "You`re supposed to tell me that! What are they made of?". What a battle I had to get them to replace the sensor. Not sure I can be bothered again. They`ll want me to pay this time because its out of guarantee (I could do with the six months of guarantee I lost while it was away being fixed the last time), all for their "fall to pieces, shit camera". Good luck everyone, lets hope the RED ONE hangs together and is tougher than my canon DSLR, when they all start working.

 

[number6]

I said "You`re supposed to tell me that! What are they made of?". What a battle I had to get them to replace the sensor. Not sure I can be bothered again. They`ll want me to pay this time because its out of guarantee (I could do with the six months of guarantee I lost while it was away being fixed the last time), all for their "fall to pieces, shit camera". Good luck everyone, lets hope the RED ONE hangs together and is tougher than my canon DSLR, when they all start working.

ronx, I share your pain with cannon fodder output and I think that is one other important reason for going with the RED. Jim has said that he will try to see problems from the consumers point of view and will act fairly. I doubt there is a Mr. Canon or a Mr. Sony to complain to directly if you have a problem. But we have a Mr. Jim, the benevolent dictator, or Monarch, or whatever. On the other hand, we do not know the line of succession at RED. Therefore, just in case there is a catastrophe and our most royal highness Jim should not be in charge, we should start doing now what we can to protect our good gravy. Thus, any who are religious, please, please, pray for Jim. May he live long and cause us to prosper.

 

[PaulClements]

I really wish RED would give us like 7-9 filter presets within the camera's menu like Sony does. Stuff like Sepia, Solarize, Stretch, B&W, etc..

Hi Richard,

At IBC they showed RedAlert with some presets built into it that you can apply to the footage. Apparently Graeme had only just done them on the Thursday night or at least very recently. I'm sure you could probably use them as LUT's in camera too.

--------

On the subject of 1080p, I'd probably rather have 4k and 1080p as options in the camera instead of 4k & 2k. For me 4k and 1080p are the two most essential formats to work from. Genesis and others work at 1080p so the digital workflow is easy to build into, furthermore onset previewing of 1080p has more options than 2k does and I don't suppose it would be too long before a 1080p EVF and LCD is available which would allow us to preview footage exactly as it is shot. 2K is a format that is not readily supported by manufacturers of screen technology compared to 1080p and as such having a 2k EVF/LCD is unlikely. 2K monitoring on set is limited.

At this stage in time we are still significantly limited by the size of flash cards, shooting at a lower resolution allows for longer stints without swapping out, for whatever reason the user should need it.

I'm not disagreeing with you that shooting 4k isn't the best and most ideal means. I would just prefer the choice to shoot 1080p alongside it for projects that are better suited.

Paul

 

[R. Gonzales]

Red one is a cinema camera. Not tv ENG style. If you buy a REDONE for ENG shooting than you need to strugle with it IMO. And thats why some people don't buy it.

Seems like many wants to shoot with RED and directly smack the footage into a TV. How many movies/tv series/comersials/indies etc etc are made like that?

IMO Mark hits the nail right where he should. on the sweet spot. Record 4k EFP flat, edit/grade. Out to 4k/2K/1080p/720P/480P.

Now... Record 720p in 120fps seems fantastic but even better is 2k 100fps. Think about it. 4k 60fps (RAW), 2k 100fps, high dynamic camera for 17000$ that beats s35mm?! Jim allready told there is a limit. I think they have surpassed hell by now. Ask Panavision/Dalsa/SI/Sony/Panasonic etc etc.

And ones again REDONE is a cinema camera...

Then why put out a B4 adapter? How many people are going to shoot Cinema? A few? Compared to the other thousands of ENG, News Doc, Industrial and other shooters. It has never been said that great things were easy to do. If Ted didn’t come out and said that, and I quote,” The sweet spot is really 2K and down, 2K, 1080p, 720p all onboard wavelet base variable bit rate encoding technology" etc. If Ted had said this is a 4K camera for cinematic purposes, then how many reservations would have been collected?

Look I am not trying to offend anyone but this BS has to stop So I ask Jim, Ted, please for once and for all Let us know what your intensions are in regards to 720, 1080p acquisition variable frame rate. Some others and I have been living with an expectation for almost 2 years now and to be told in the final hours that our expectations are a waste of time. It seems to "me" that there is more to this. Just because it might be a waste of time in your mind doesn't mean it is a waste of time for others. Stop being selfish and shear the wealth.:angry01:

Regards

Method

 

[Lauri Kettunen]

Mike, thanks for posting your thoughts. Coming from the world of video cameras, and waiting for such a long time for proper HD-equipment with reasonable cost, it's interesting to realize that HD is so quickly overtaken by more powerful tools. The impression is like being on a German highway with a brand new car, which was supposed to be so good, and then before getting to the first exit you get bypassed by those cars running smoothly over 250 km/h.

I`d like to tell you what impressed me about the Red One.

Ronx, enjoyed a lot reading your post. Especially so, as share many of your thoughts although for me the resolution was an issue. A discussion on another thread yesterday made me to realize that the biggest factor to choose Red One was that every camera I've used and owned has soon got to its limits. My passion is wildlife movies of Northern Europe where every month of the year has its own special tone of light. An experienced eye is able to tell from good photographs when they are approximately taken; For instance, the light of the beginning of the winter in November is not the as in December and so on.

So, there is a vision what one wants to show and tell by images and movies, and once you've learnt to operate a camera without any mental processing, you will soon be able to push it to its limits. Thereafter, in an increasing amount of level you start to understand to which extent you have to give up of your vision and goals due to the technical limitations of the equipment available. All what I've seen so far from seems to suggest RED will make the biggest change on these limitations than any other camera I've had chance to use before. Should get much closer to the limits of DSLRs.

And yes indeed --as have edited slide shows from Canon 1D Mark II (raw-) images with the Cineform 12-bit codec-- the 4:4:44) color space with 12 bit depth makes all the difference as you say Ronx. Even better, as Cineform guys use to say, wavelets do yield a "visually lossless codec" and, amazingly enough, it all runs on my machine at home (and this should apply to the Cineform 4K version as well.) DCT-approaches do indeed result occasionally in quite akward images. For example, it has happened several times that when have taken a footage of a reddish sky during the sun set, back home on the monitor I see the sky filled with small red squares. The same has not occured with Cineform's wavelet-codec.

 

[Fix]

No one has suggested in this thread it is a ENG camera.
100fps@2k is better than 120fps@720p for slomo? apples and oranges

I agree 100fps@2k is tons better than 120fps@720p.

I don't understand why you end your post with "REDONE is a cinema camera" when you mention its use for TV commercials and drama.

I end up my post that way because I want to point out that it’s not a camera for everyone. Sure everyone can buy it. But it would be wise to look at the differences between a cinema camera and a fully ENG style camera. The process of making something clean and usable with a red one is far harder than shooting with an HDXDCAM or HDV. Now you do know that movies are also shown at TV, yes? And that TV commercials and drama need a lot of post work. Well most of them that is…

We can do what we want with it and if it gets the feature set Jim originally envisaged it would be a better tool for the many(?) that do want to smack it into a TV.

I agree you can do what you want with Redone but what is the meaning of the word (many) in this context anyways? Could it be that all of us are able to make good movies with an excellent tool for a price unheard of? I believe that’s the case. Convert 4k to 480p is a button away in your editing system anyways. I think most people dealing with this cam can and will manage that.

I hope you understand my point of view in this matter because thats all it is :usd:

 

[PaulClements]

Hi,

I think the comment "Film is Dead" only serves to put many professionals off of Red and it's adopters, as many brand us as fanatics whether the comment has any substance or not.

It will be interesting to compare how many movies are shot on 35mm compared to digital in 2008. Interesting times.

Paul

 

[Jim Perry Jr.]

Glad to hear.

No I give the filled card to an assistant who uses a Mac book pro to down load the CF card, the asst then pulls up a saved look and applies it too the footage and then saves a copy to a fire wire drive as 720p, right? All the while I continue to shoot.

So how long does this process take? And is it possible in a non-studio environment? And since I am asking, what would you suggest for al day power for the Mac and HDD's.
Method.

Mike thanks for sharing with the community,
I have a similar question. I remember reading here about
various ratios that were given on how hong it took to convert
4k to lower formats. But sadly i didnt book mark them.

side note: if red doesn't add the option of 480i\p,720i\p,1080i\p
how about using a portable deck (i.e firestore?) or
a converter and external deck.

back to my question.
how long does it take you to convert 1min of 4k to 720 or 1080?
How fast is the mac you are running the conversions on?

 

[planet e]

it's great to hear mark's opinion on this. you can tell by looking at the offhollywood website what kind of shooting he does, and it's true that his circumstances may not apply to all shooting situations. still, it is intriguing to consider the simplicity of RAW and its application to any re-sampling situation. i've been advocating for keeping the lower rezzes, but if it is as push-button as both mark and jim say, maybe it is worth re-visiting. we still need to know this in order to be able to trust it.

mark, would you mind posting times, for downconverting, as the previous poster mentioned, a 1 min. clip to 1080p and the same one to 720p, so we can get some feedback on the truth of what this would entail? this would be a huge step towards resolving this debate. and i think it is the outstanding variable. you would be doing us another awesome service. i don't even need to see the clip, maybe a jpeg (if it's not of something you have already posted), so we have a general idea about what type of info is being processed, but i would just love to have a general concept of render times for downsampling.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

it's great to hear mark's opinion on this. you can tell by looking at the offhollywood website what kind of shooting he does, and it's true that his circumstances may not apply to all shooting situations. still, it is intriguing to consider the simplicity of RAW and its application to any re-sampling situation. i've been advocating for keeping the lower rezzes, but if it is as push-button as both mark and jim say, maybe it is worth re-visiting. we still need to know this in order to be able to trust it.

mark, would you mind posting times, for downconverting, as the previous poster mentioned, a 1 min. clip to 1080p and the same one to 720p, so we can get some feedback on the truth of what this would entail? this would be a huge step towards resolving this debate. and i think it is the outstanding variable. you would be doing us another awesome service. i don't even need to see the clip, maybe a jpeg (if it's not of something you have already posted), so we have a general idea about what type of info is being processed, but i would just love to have a general concept of render times for downsampling.

We want to wait for REDCINE before we post benchmarks. Red Alert is a short term, stop-gap solution.

We will give you benchmarks soon - we are moving too fast to document them -

But YES - as soon as we can - we'll give you benchmarks and clips.

 

[Rocco Schult]

The only worrying thing for me is the aspect that so few Post Houses have scratch to currenttly offer a RAW workflow to clients... I can just see people still Asking for 8 bit targas of HD red frames, because their flame can't handle anything better.

Which Flame version are you referring to ? Thats been longer ago then there was a Scratch.

 

[planet e]

We want to wait for REDCINE before we post benchmarks. Red Alert is a short term, stop-gap solution.

We will give you benchmarks soon - we are moving too fast to document them -

But YES - as soon as we can - we'll give you benchmarks and clips.

that would be most appreciated. i never had any doubts about the quality of the footage, given how good the footage from the prototypes looked under fairly fast production conditions. but i'm very interested in the workflow and delivery issues, which seem more like works in progress.

 

[Rocco Schult]

- we are moving too fast to document them [benchmarks]-

This whole discussion would have been a nobrainer with a simple test from the very beginning.
10min clip, export to whatever image sequence. Take the easiest, an 8bit TGA 1080; Stop the time, period.
Aha, 10mins, Aha, an hour OR - Oh 10 hours.
I don't expect a big difference between Red Alert and RedCine.
And if so, REDAlert is ACTUAL, so is this discussion. Stop-Gap solution or not. This is REAL.

Finding reasons for or against the export/scaling to 1080 is obsolete when its quick, pretty and easy.
If its a PITA then I want 1080, along with many other shooters here, who also might not be able to let their clients wait THAT time longer.

I don't come across the feeling that the export times will be really painful.
What about the other owners ? Anybody having experience ? Or everybody only exporting stills ?