RAVEN vs SCARLET/EPIC

[Andrae Palmer]

Scarlet is like a refined Porsche with all the bells and whistles one would expect whereas the Raven is a stripped back DIY beast with just as much horsepower but everything stripped out to allow it to do the things it does brilliantly, while not having all those bells and whistles.

One you want to do a drag race in and one you want to tour the autobahn on. Different markets can co-exist between Scarlet and Raven, while at the same point there will inevitably be a level of crossover, just like there with with Epic and Scarlet.

Hard to say that... when Raven looks like the Porsche and has more horsepower... 4k at 120fps.

 

[Jose Nunoz]

PL /Interchangeable Mount
The rest of it is just the fact that technology moves on and we are more than a year past Dragon, so a few years past its development.

I agree with you, and as technology moves on, the prices adjust. Which is why I have a feeling we will see a change to pricing on the Scarlet line with this announcement. Not immediately but in the future.

 

[Med D]

I don't see anyone buying a new Epic or Scarlet now unless timing demands it. Auto-blackshade and built-in wifi -- which presumably is much less klugey than the Epic aftermarket wi-fi stuff -- these features alone make Raven more attractive. The only benefit to buying into the Epic/Scarlet world right now is that you will be seeing massive sale prices on accessories.

Those who are saying swappable OLPFs is a feature, I disagree. Unless you need one of the specialty OLPFs, such as the H2O OLPF, there is not much value there. Frankly the swappable OLPF was to solve a design error in the first place, which presumably has been solved by the "Standard OLPF". You could say the same thing about auto blackshade really. These are deficiencies in the Epic/Scarlet that Raven/Weapon are correcting.

 

[Hugh Scully]

I don't see anyone buying a new Epic or Scarlet now unless timing demands it. Auto-blackshade and built-in wifi -- which presumably is much less klugey than the Epic aftermarket wi-fi stuff -- these features alone make Raven more attractive. The only benefit to buying into the Epic/Scarlet world right now is that you will be seeing massive sale prices on accessories.

Those who are saying swappable OLPFs is a feature, I disagree. Unless you need one of the specialty OLPFs, such as the H2O OLPF, there is not much value there. Frankly the swappable OLPF was to solve a design error in the first place, which presumably has been solved by the "Standard OLPF". You could say the same thing about auto blackshade really. These are deficiencies in the Epic/Scarlet that Raven/Weapon are correcting.

The entire professional world shoots on Epics Dragons. It is the standard and to say that "Raven is more attractive" is fine. If the Raven fits the bill for your needs. The Raven is a huge gift to owner/operator indie shooters but it cannot replace the Epic Dragon or the Scarlet Dragon and never will. It is not meant to. I understand the enthusiasm but keep it real.

 

[Leo Sylvester]

I'll give you two reasons Scarlet Dragon is a better match to Epic Dragon on set: PL Mount, 5K FF.

Both of your reasons(in my experience) are often irrelevant on the set of low/medium budget productions, which I was referring too(apologies if there was a miscommunication).

What does that even mean, market/dealer? It's RED!

It means: I think it will have a direct impact on day rates & oem pricing model for the scarlet, and to some extent epic on the smaller/medium sized productions.

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

Wow. Could not disagree with you more. If it's not obvious what epic dragon has over raven then i don't know what to say. There is no way raven would replace epic dragon on a professional commercial set. just FYI

And swappable olpf's is amazing, have you seen Kipper Tie store?
http://kippertie.com/?product_cat=olpf-2
Sorry but you are just plain wrong.

I don't see anyone buying a new Epic or Scarlet now unless timing demands it. Auto-blackshade and built-in wifi -- which presumably is much less klugey than the Epic aftermarket wi-fi stuff -- these features alone make Raven more attractive. The only benefit to buying into the Epic/Scarlet world right now is that you will be seeing massive sale prices on accessories.

Those who are saying swappable OLPFs is a feature, I disagree. Unless you need one of the specialty OLPFs, such as the H2O OLPF, there is not much value there. Frankly the swappable OLPF was to solve a design error in the first place, which presumably has been solved by the "Standard OLPF". You could say the same thing about auto blackshade really. These are deficiencies in the Epic/Scarlet that Raven/Weapon are correcting.

 

[Andrae Palmer]

Wow. Could not disagree with you more. If it's not obvious what epic dragon has over raven then i don't know what to say. There is no way raven would replace epic dragon on a professional commercial set. just FYI

And swappable olpf's is amazing, have you seen Kipper Tie store?
http://kippertie.com/?product_cat=olpf-2
Sorry but you are just plain wrong.

I agree... People are crazy comparing a 8.8 megapixel sensor to a 19.4 megapixel sensor camera that can shoot 6k at 100fps with options for professional PL mount cinema lenses. Raven fits into the low end nicely... I will buy one... I don't see how it competes with a EPIC Dragon. I can see how it competes with a Scarlet Dragon just because of the much cheaper price point, 4k 120fps feature with simultaneous Apple ProRes... so even though it has cons... it still packs a lot of value. IMHO Raven is now the Scarlet at the low end.

 

[Detlev Eller]

Aloha!

RAVEN - SCARLET - EPIC - WEAPON (!)
=>>>> amazing : ... 4 levels of DRAGON flexibility and happiness!


in detail ... thinking: speed to action, weight, lens options, OLPF, rigging time, resolution, compression .... plenty of differences!


Is SCARLET or RAVEN the better B-Cam ... workflow wise - luggage wise - rigging wise ??? ...

Interesting question and hence i´d like to share some real world, independent bootstrapped filmmaking thinking - it really depends!
;-)


i shot all the time, single operator multi cam style ... with a mix of MX-MONOCHROME (my favourite!), EPIC DRAGON, 2 SCARLET DRAGONS - often tethered ... 5K FF / WS ... "depends on the hunt and hunch of the day"...
I like 5K FF for reframing and density to 4k WS master ... which is why the RAVEN would demand more care in framing.

With my main project, the "Everything Beta Film", I rarely shot 6K ... although i like to have it for occasional wider coverage.
It is also good to know and comforting to have low FPS 6K on the SCARLETS as well, for potential "Multi Angle Motion Still Extraction" for the one or other commercial gig.
Just a little more flexibility, a few more options in the bag. Something´s gotta pay the bills ;-)

i use EF mount lenses, for budget, flexibility, variety of choices and weight ... a few CANON, mostly SIGMA these days.

At first announcement, i thought i am going to replace the SCARLETS with RAVENS ... especially for the build in scratch mics and the space all this stuff takes on my back .... hehe

Now, i am more likely to keep them all and add 2 Ravens - somehow the SCARLETS feel even more valuable in the bigger picture ... wicked - right? .... LOL

Then, i consider myself a hard hustler, no compromise. no fountain of coins around. i just love making my pictures the way i want, uncompromising. free.

RAVEN promisses more freedom. more fun.

So, for anyone new to the wonderful world of RED - in my view - the RED RAVEN is the best low budget entry level cam to shot REDCODE RAW + RED Color Science ... which is where the magic is ...
Starting out, I would pick it over SCARLET, if it would be the first cam and the EPIC would be out of range budget wise. I´d better invest the difference in cost of bodies in a bunch of REDMAGS and BATTERY POWER.

that´s my thinking, practical, not to techie, hope it helps the one or other.

I think RED got the new hatch perfectly right, rounding up the family.

love it. all of it.
Excellences - thanks!

Happy shooting!

Detlev


P.S:
Question, when will the 8K beast delight my eyes ..... can´t wait, i tell you!
Hustle harder. ;-)

 

[Mike Garrick]

As of yesterday Scarlet Dragon is EOL.

The real killer is compression ratios .....SD can't shoot 4k @ 3.1 but it can do 4k @ 5.1 , 5k @ 8.1 just. Swappable OLPF is a faulty feature that we paid to have fixed . The only thing SD has which Raven doesn't is interchangeable mounts. Slo mo is self explaining . All for 2.5 times the cost of Raven.

These are facts and no amount of massaging will change that in buyers minds in the future . So SD RIP.

 

[Med D]

Hey I did not say Raven was replacing Epic/Scarlet. What I said was "I don't see anyone buying a new Epic or Scarlet now". I'm including Weapon and Raven in that equation. Any high-end application is going to go Weapon and any low-end stuff will go Raven. I can't see anyone going for the middle range when all the best/newest features are on these newer products. The only exceptions will be people who cannot wait for the new products.

 

[Hector M. Sanchez Jr]

At the moment, I'm thinking of upgrading from the MX Scarlet to the MX Epic. How does everyone feel towards the Raven vs the MX Epic. Is it a drastic difference, or is it still worth jumping to the MX Epic ? I still think theres a advantage with the Epic, shoots in 5K at 100+ frames, and even more at 4k, interchangeable lens mount, and ect.

 

[sam karr]

As of yesterday Scarlet Dragon is EOL.

The real killer is compression ratios .....SD can't shoot 4k @ 3.1 but it can do 4k @ 5.1 , 5k @ 8.1 just. Swappable OLPF is a faulty feature that we paid to have fixed . The only thing SD has which Raven doesn't is interchangeable mounts. Slo mo is self explaining . All for 2.5 times the cost of Raven.

These are facts and no amount of massaging will change that in buyers minds in the future . So SD RIP.

I guess maybe you should try the different cameras. 5k is a total different world from 4K. And redcode 16:1 @5K on the scarlet dragon is WAY cleaner than 13:1 @4K. 5k is 50% more pixels. You should not just compare the redcode like you do but try and compare in real life instead. So yeah that's right Raven is doing 120fps, but slowmo was so much everywhere that it becomes tacky these days anyway. 60/75fps is perfectly ok when it's really needed, 120/150fps is boring as hell when watching videos, you just want the shot to end faster. Scarlet Dragon is the real serious budget movie camera, and way more versatile in my opinion.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

As of yesterday Scarlet Dragon is EOL.

The real killer is compression ratios .....SD can't shoot 4k @ 3.1 but it can do 4k @ 5.1 , 5k @ 8.1 just. Swappable OLPF is a faulty feature that we paid to have fixed . The only thing SD has which Raven doesn't is interchangeable mounts. Slo mo is self explaining . All for 2.5 times the cost of Raven.

These are facts and no amount of massaging will change that in buyers minds in the future . So SD RIP.

Not sure what your interpretation of EOL is but I would disagree based on my own definition.

Scarlet Dragon is still a viable camera as is. Lots of things to argue for and much more flexibility. I am quite convinced based on comments that Jarred has made in the past and some he made last night that Scarlet (and Epic) Dragon owners will have options going forward and they will be both attractive and cost-effective. Every time someone has predicted a RED model is dead because of a new model, something has developed to show the path forward. This time is no different. Anyone who believes your EOL statement and wants to bail on their Scarlet or Epic Dragon in a panic is, IMO, a fool.

EDIT: I should say "even MORE options" because you already have options to go to the various Weapon models if you can justify making the larger investment.

 

[Detlev Eller]

As of yesterday Scarlet Dragon is EOL.

The real killer is compression ratios .....SD can't shoot 4k @ 3.1 but it can do 4k @ 5.1 , 5k @ 8.1 just. Swappable OLPF is a faulty feature that we paid to have fixed . The only thing SD has which Raven doesn't is interchangeable mounts. Slo mo is self explaining . All for 2.5 times the cost of Raven.

These are facts and no amount of massaging will change that in buyers minds in the future . So SD RIP.

LOL ... that´s a rather narrow POV ... ;-)

Thrilled to see 3:1 !!!

Then, i´ve got piles of hard drives shot at 22:1 ... often little light ... pushing it hard and loving it ...

swappable OLPF is awesome, loving John Marchants Full Spectrum OLPF .... (UV/IR photography)

ideas, pictures and assembly ... options matter. resolution matters (for some) and hence: there are essentially 4 brackets now - where there have been 2 before.

 

[Jose Nunoz]

Not sure what your interpretation of EOL is but I would disagree based on my own definition.

Scarlet Dragon is still a viable camera as is. Lots of things to argue for and much more flexibility.

of course scarlet-d is still very much viable , just as a Mx sensor camera is still great. but I think the argument is if you are going in new, there is a lot less reason to purchase a scarlet dragon setup. The Raven is such a bargain , it is a hard argument to say the price of the scarlet dragon body new is worth the dollar amount. And those new features like wifi, prores , and the low compression is just so tempting in a modern camera offering, things you don't get with scarlet dragon.

 

[Mike Garrick]

of course scarlet-d is still very much viable , just as a Mx sensor camera is still great. but I think the argument is if you are going in new, there is a lot less reason to purchase a scarlet dragon setup. The Raven is such a bargain , it is a hard argument to say the price of the scarlet dragon body new is worth the dollar amount. And those new features like wifi, prores , and the low compression is just so tempting in a modern camera offering, things you don't get with scarlet dragon.

Correct I'm not passing judgement on SD , as I own one. But what will now happen going forward for buyers. It will be interesting to see , IMO there will certainly be less SDs sold from now on . Maybe a price adjustment is on the horizon.

 

[M Angel]

I want to buy a new camera and I'll be getting a Scarlet Dragon next summer, just because it has PL mount and anamorphic mode and that's all I want in a camera (plus the Dragon sensor)

It also will cost around that €10.000 mark fully kitted or even cheaper! ��

 

[sam karr]

of course scarlet-d is still very much viable , just as a Mx sensor camera is still great. but I think the argument is if you are going in new, there is a lot less reason to purchase a scarlet dragon setup. The Raven is such a bargain , it is a hard argument to say the price of the scarlet dragon body new is worth the dollar amount. And those new features like wifi, prores , and the low compression is just so tempting in a modern camera offering, things you don't get with scarlet dragon.

Once again, give it a try. I'm amazed when you bring wifi, etc. I thought people wanted cameras to shoot the best possible images. For still photo I'm using Mamiya 7 and RZ67 film cameras, you can just choose the aperture and the shutter speed, and it's annihilating any modern camera by far at the end. I want the best camera for what it was designed for: the final image. And the S35 5K image of the scarlet dragon is better than raven's one. Maybe many people want a shiny trendy wifi camera but I will make the effort to control my camera directly without an iphone, will appreciate to have an heavier scarlet (more stable), will use a real microphone if I can get better images and work at the end. And my editing is going flawlessly with r3d as computer technology moved on too these last years so I don't really see the point of prores.

 

[Gene Sung]

To me at least, it makes sense that Red starts to move everyone to a Weapon body - Auto black shade, less fan noise, lighter weight, internal speakers, less temperature issues. With the huge gap in price between Raven and Mag Weapon, seems a Weapon body camera that sits in the middle at around $20K just makes sense. Maybe they will move the Scarlet and Dragon users towards something like that?

 

[Terry VerHaar]

of course scarlet-d is still very much viable , just as a Mx sensor camera is still great. but I think the argument is if you are going in new, there is a lot less reason to purchase a scarlet dragon setup. The Raven is such a bargain , it is a hard argument to say the price of the scarlet dragon body new is worth the dollar amount. And those new features like wifi, prores , and the low compression is just so tempting in a modern camera offering, things you don't get with scarlet dragon.

I tend to agree but, if you are not planning to buy a Raven, then I'd suggest sitting tight for awhile. RED can't and won't announce every new product all at once. Let them implement their strategy while you should just keep your eyes open. No one should buy the older model of a computer after it's been out for awhile unless they can put it's capabilities to immediate use. Same thing applies here. If you can put a particular camera to use right away, buy it and don't look back. If you think the market for what you want will become clearer/better in the near future, you wait.

The so-called "problem" here is that Raven is so much damned camera for the money! LOL Let's see if it starts a trend. (And, BTW, I think Weapon is a lot of damned camera for the money, too. Even if it's a lot of money!)