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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RAVEN vs SCARLET/EPIC

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Damien Vignaux

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Hello guys !

I'm really happy with the new announcement of the RAVEN but can't help asking myself some questions.
Havent seen anybody discussing this so far so here it goes...

Do you find the price difference justified in between the RAVEN and the EPIC and SCARLET dragon ?

Should this new release, addition, affect the pricing in the rest of the family ?
 

Do you find the price difference justified in between the RAVEN and the EPIC and SCARLET dragon ?

Yes

Should this new release, addition, affect the pricing in the rest of the family ?

No
 
I would think it would have some effect on the Scarlet Dragon. Not Epic, that is in a whole different league with it's featureset
The gap from $5950 v $14,500 seems just too big between the two brains with the Dragon sensors as far as value.
Of course, the Raven can't shoot 5K but it does have higher frame rates at 4K. Sure, Raven has a fixed EF mount and you can change mounts with the Scarlet line.. But then again, the Raven brings some of the weapon features over so that adds value to many.

I was going to go in on a Scarlet Dragon since I skipped the upgrade, but now I feel like I should wait and see how it all shakes out in coming months.
 
So for someone planning on getting a SCARLET Dragon it's worth asking the question, but for someone planning on getting an EPIC Dragon there is no question.
 
Jose Nunoz said:
I would think it would have some effect on the Scarlet Dragon. Not Epic, that is in a whole different league with it's featureset
The gap from $5950 v $14,500 seems just too big between the two brains with the Dragon sensors as far as value.
Of course, the Raven can't shoot 5K but it does have higher frame rates at 4K. Sure, Raven has a fixed EF mount and you can change mounts with the Scarlet line.. But then again, the Raven brings some of the weapon features over so that adds value to many.

I was going to go in on a Scarlet Dragon since I skipped the upgrade, but now I feel like I should wait and see how it all shakes out in coming months.
Click to expand...


My thoughts exactly
 
Jon MIchael Puntervold said:
Scarlet Dragon... S35 (5k) and PL. Seems to answer the question, no?
Click to expand...

I know what you're saying, but the RAVEN also has those quite attractive Weapon carry over features like Pro Res and auto Black Shading and WiFi Those really are enticing when weighing against the scarlet. Not to mention Raven's higher frame rates @ 4K than is possible on Scarlet-D
 
I'm not sure the smaller sensor in the Raven is going to be that big of a deal. Really, its not that smaller than S35...so honestly, in real world experience...I think the Raven is really going to stack up...for a lot less investment. Just IMO

Some compare the sensor size to the GH2. If you look, there are some really nice shallow DOP shots on made on the GH2. I think in the right hands...the Raven is going to be "the little guy with a huge punch."
 
Scarlet dragon also has swappable olpf's
 
SCARLET is a better B Cam to EPIC or to DRAGON. I think of RAVEN as either its own entry-level, stand-alone entity, or as a great backup/supplement to a SCARLET or EPIC or DRAGON, or as a super lightweight gimbal/drone cam. It's all these things.

But without 5K and interchangeable OLPF and lens mounts - I don't see it as replacing any of the above.

I do see an upgrade to the SCARLET/EPIC line, at some point. But RED is going to have a lot of new RAVEN/WEAPON orders to fill before that happens. And they will want to sell as many of these as they can, most likely, before that upgrade to the SCARLET/EPIC feature set takes place (and it will be a new body, not firmware - EPIC/SCARLET 2.0). Possibly a reset in the pricing as well. But to take advantage of these will require a lot of patience and probably result in some missed opportunity.
 
Hard decision for me but I've decided to wait it out and see what happens. March is a long time away, who knows what will happen by then..... Maybe they will offer upgrade paths, maybe slash prices of Epics, maybe slash weapon prices... Maybe red will release A Raven pro that shoots 1000fps.. even if I decide to buy a Raven hopefully they are available to buy outright late March anyway once the preorders have gone out... No need to rush and preorder, they aren't going anywhere ;)
 
Meryem Ersoz said:
SCARLET is a better B Cam to EPIC or to DRAGON.
Click to expand...

"better" is really subjective here. What is not subjective is that on most sets I have been on, Scarlet is usually the B cam. I don't see that being the case anymore given the Ravens specs. For some instances yes, but if it came down to having 1 scarlet or 2-3 ravens on set, what do you think the director/producer is going to say?

So yes I would say that has a direct impact on market/dealer pricing across the board.
 
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The features of the Raven are really compelling. The cons such as lack of OLPF switching, no 5k and no interchangeable mount... is not such a big deal if you are shooting on Canon EF lenses anyway... which many of us have been. I have an EPIC Dragon 6K with Canon EF mount... and I would much prefer the Raven has my B cam or has an affordable rental/studio option. I really needed an affordable option that packs more power and supports my investment in Canon/Zeiss CP2 lenses... and thats exactly why I'll be investing in the Raven. The newer body, lighter weight, Apple ProRes+RAW wrokflow and higher fps... sealed the deal. I really don't think RED will be going back to Scarlet Dragon design for any upgrades... raven is the future for the low end and the new body design. In the future I see the upgrades going towards RED Raven for 5k/6k larger sensors, PL mount or even interchangeable mounts and Scarlet line being EOL.
 
The bigger difference is in the Weapon line itself. Epic Dragon and Scarlet Dragon are a different line.

I don't see moving to the Weapon line for a while. My next camera is an Epic Dragon. Both are current, supported, getting updates - alive and kicin'. They're just kind of last year's model and a fine one at that. If I want wifi, I can get the Offhollywood hotlink. If I need ProRes, I can cook many versions of ProRes options, it's just not right there in camera. I don't have to black shade all that often, and have 4 presets. The weight? Uh... hasn't been an issue before now, anamorphic, OLPFs (love the skin tone highlight), PL Mount and all the accessory stuff I have goes nice on an Epic Dragon. I think the Scarlet Dragon is a better bet for sharing a set with Epic Dragon. That's where it's close and that's where I live.

I'm whiffing a lot of wishing in the a lot of posts that Raven being on the scene will drop the price on the SD - some kind of gear lust Schadenfreude. That's up to RED. I don't care. Raven doesn't change anything for me and my Scarlet Dragon. If I had it to do again, I'd buy the Scarlet Dragon over the Raven even though I owe more on it, still, than the cost of new Raven! It's just the right thing for me at this time because this is what I worked up to.

To the OP: The Raven is amazing. Just go get one. You know you want it. ;)
 
Scarlet is like a refined Porsche with all the bells and whistles one would expect whereas the Raven is a stripped back DIY beast with just as much horsepower but everything stripped out to allow it to do the things it does brilliantly, while not having all those bells and whistles.

One you want to do a drag race in and one you want to tour the autobahn on. Different markets can co-exist between Scarlet and Raven, while at the same point there will inevitably be a level of crossover, just like there with with Epic and Scarlet.
 
Leo Sylvester said:
"better" is really subjective here. What is not subjective is that on all sets but the super low budgets, Scarlet is almost always the B cam. I don't see that being the case anymore given the Ravens specs. For some instances yes, but if it came down to having 1 scarlet or 2-3 ravens on set, what do you think the director/producer is going to say?
Click to expand...

I'll give you two reasons Scarlet Dragon is a better match to Epic Dragon on set: PL Mount, 5K FF.

So yes I would say that has a direct impact on market/dealer pricing across the board.
Click to expand...

What do you care? What does that even mean, market/dealer? It's RED!
 
I also think RED did a great job by adressing the indie/docu market and opening the arms for new customers ;-).
I was going to jump on it only if it would have been 5k... 4k debayer is an excellent 2k camera but it's not a contender for a 4k master, so I don't understand the way RED went with this 4k sensor as it's against their mantra "no upscaling" and we all know that 4k debayer is like 3.2k resolving details.
5k would have also covered the S35mm. Now we have to test these and see what it really delivers. I'm going to stop assumptions until then.

But I'm sure, one day, I'll also shoot RAVEN.

Pat

PS: Put in perspective 4k debayer is 0.8k more than what an 60'000$ alexa can do... Lol
 
Ben Scott said:
Scarlet is like a refined Porsche with all the bells and whistles one would expect whereas the Raven is a stripped back DIY beast with just as much horsepower but everything stripped out to allow it to do the things it does brilliantly, while not having all those bells and whistles.

One you want to do a drag race in and one you want to tour the autobahn on. Different markets can co-exist between Scarlet and Raven, while at the same point there will inevitably be a level of crossover, just like there with with Epic and Scarlet.
Click to expand...

Well said. Very nice, Ben!
 
Ben Scott said:
Scarlet is like a refined Porsche with all the bells and whistles one would expect whereas the Raven is a stripped back DIY beast with just as much horsepower but everything stripped out to allow it to do the things it does brilliantly, while not having all those bells and whistles.
Click to expand...
I don't know. I'd consider auto blackshading, in camera Pro-Res, light weight, and new WEAPON form factor some pretty HUGE bells and whistles... now thinking of it, I'd say the scarlet-d is the stripped down drag racer but with more horsepower (5K motion) But it does depend on the production. I just think overall if you are a lower budget house and you have to pick ONE camera the Raven is all around a stronger value. The gap between the Scarlet and Raven just doesn't provide enough value unless you NEED resolution and the lens mounting options
 
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PL /Interchangeable Mount
5k 24fps
Interchangeable OLPF

are absolutely huge and dealbreakers for some markets.

The rest of it is just the fact that technology moves on and we are more than a year past Dragon, so a few years past its development.
 
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