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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RAVEN mattebox

tonaci said:
From a rental perspective I disagree. I have been renting my rig out and the majority of clients subrent out "Arri" gear. It is simply what they are used to and because of this I highly doubt the resale value of the mb20 will immediately plummet in price once the RED mattebox lands. The Mb20 will continue to have rental value for those who can afford it.

With that said though, I am looking to get the RED Mattebox. hopefully it comes out soon.
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Tonaci, I thought you were refering to resale value. From a rental perspective, I'm sure that you're closer to the truth, that rental prices will be more stable. But you can't compare the rental and resale markets. They're very different things. But I would wager that the resale value of the MB20, while not "plunging", will be dropping pretty fast if the Red MB is the cat's meow.
You're looking to get one yourself.
 
Evolve said:
Hi Richard,
I guess i see it differently. Like the evolution of digital cinema, so to is the evolution of the accessories. I'm pretty convinced that ARRI will have to drop their prices once, and IF, Redrock, Red, and whoever else can produce a product that does a very similar thing and has similar quality and longevity that Arri's does, at a price that is 1/8th (at least RR's is supposed to be).....or even half the price of an Arri MB. Now those are big IF's, but my sense is that MB prices aren't going to be stable for long. Same as arri cameras....
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To ultra clarify my statement. If you buy an mb20 now you can use it until the Red Mattebox is released. The price drop you are referring to will happen over time...not over a couple days or weeks. So my point is, anyone who wants to transition to the RED Mattebox to save some coin..can sell their mb20.

As for the plummeting price prediction. The RED is out now and I don't see the Arri-d20, genesis, f23, dalsa, f900 or even the Varicam dropping down to 20,000? So in comparison, don't expect the mb20 to drop that soon even after the redrock and red releas their mattebox. I am not saying prices won't go lower, I am just merely pointing out that change takes time. I agree that at some point Sony, Arri..etc will have to restrategize their high end digital cine products and price points..however it's not going to happen fast.
 
Evolve said:
Tonaci, I thought you were refering to resale value. From a rental perspective, I'm sure that you're closer to the truth, that rental prices will be more stable. But you can't compare the rental and resale markets. They're very different things. But I would wager that the resale value of the MB20, while not "plunging", will be dropping pretty fast if the Red MB is the cat's meow.
You're looking to get one yourself.
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Yes I was referring to resale value.. the resale value to individuals who rent out the equipment. Those who rent out Arri gear will be the ones likely to purchase Arri gear second hand because of the rentability of Arri gear. I would say the majority of buyers who look into buying ARRi gear are into the business of renting it out rather than for purely their own personal use. As with my initial statement, the resale value of the mb20 will hold even upon the release of the Red Mattebox.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one..because I just don't agree that the prices will "drop pretty fast." It hasn't so far for the digital cine cameras and it won't for matteboxes. It will just take more time for companies to get out of their denial phase.
 
tonaci said:
The price drop you are referring to will happen over time...not over a couple days or weeks. So my point is, anyone who wants to transition to the RED Mattebox to save some coin..can sell their mb20.
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Sure. But if the RED mattebox comes out, then the resale value of ARRI MB's will drop, and fast. That's usually how prices drop in technology related items. Fast. Let's say the Red MB comes out on May the 1st (just in time for the delivery of your's truly's RED:biggrin: ). Do you believe that given the choice of buying a used arri MB or a new Red MB at a quarter of the cost (hypothetical) that people are going to opt for the Arri? What happens when you introduce a new product into this market is that you siphon off the potential buyers of the product (in this case the used ARRI MB buyers) so your price (as a used ARRI MB seller) is going to have to come down. And considerably, to re-attract people into the used Arri MB market.

tonaci said:
As for the plummeting price prediction. The RED is out now and I don't see the Arri-d20, genesis, f23, dalsa, f900 or even the Varicam dropping down to 20,000? So in comparison, don't expect the mb20 to drop that soon even after the redrock and red releas their mattebox. I am not saying prices won't go lower, I am just merely pointing out that change takes time. I agree that at some point Sony, Arri..etc will have to restrategize their high end digital cine products and price points..however it's not going to happen fast.
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Well three of the cameras you listed aren't for sale: the d-20, the genesis, and the f23 (although maybe i'm mistaken on the f23's most recent update), and I will wager a lot of money that you will see a significant drop in price in the f900 and the varicam in the next few months. Change takes time? Sure, but change is happening faster and faster, and I guarantee you, Sony and Arri and Dalsa are not sitting on the digital cinema thrones gloating, because Jim and company are kicking their asses in marketing, price, and customer loyalty. And awareness of the potential of digital cinema in general, btw.
IMO, we will see massive changes in high end digital cine products price points and flexibility in a very short period of time, or Red will totally dominate the market. So I believe you're making vast assumptions about the stability of the cinema market here: also keep in mind that by NAB there will be 2000 cameras out there looking for MB's. That's a lot of MB's, and Arri would certainly like to sell a good chunk of them.
 
rgdfilmsRED said:
Evolve, I see the ARRIs always holding value. Every production has different needs - I think the best bet for peeps like me is to go with the LM-5 today and hold out for the RED full prod. Box later. That way you get a rock solid industry standard clip on for 2k, today, and a affordable, bad ass box specifically for the Red tomrrow. The LMB-5 will give you basic functionality, cutting down your light
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Richard, you and me sound like similar peeps. Indi filmmakers with less money than time. My advice to you is not to buy a 2k arri clipon. Simply for this: lack of versatility. What will you use with the nikon mount?
As you said, the LMB gives you basic functionalilty, cutting down your light. So does cardboard. I think your best option is to check out the petroff, as it seems to have both clip on and rail mount possibilitles, as well as filter trays, which the LM 5 doesn't have, and still costs less money than the Arri. You're essentially paying for the Arri name. Anyways, best of luck with your decision.
Cheers
 
In Reverse

In Reverse

tonaci said:
To clarify, this was a picture directly from the Petroff website. It is interesting that the owner mounted it in reverse.
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Gee, I didn't know there was a 'reverse' and always thought one of the benefits of Red's modular system is that it can be configured by different owners in ways that suit what they need in the moment. For those who feel it is in reverse, no need to worry, it has been switched around, a configuration that is beneficial for going from hand held to tripod, esp with the extension. I do like it in the direction pictured for low slung hand held, as the camera is very front heavy and holding it further back I find a ease of use. But to each his own. I am also waiting to see what ET and others design and may even design custom accessories to fit certain needs. Even if I do buy/commission more accessories, I doubt I will sell any of the Red one's I already own (ah, a pun) as the more versatility I can have access to, the better.

The Petroff, while not like traditional ARRI matteboxes, is very revolutionary in it's own way. It's unique take on matteboxes and modularity reminds me of another company we all love.

cheers!

Disclaimer: I do not work for Petroff or have any association with the company except that I am currently demoing his products and he asked to take pictures of my camera with said products.
 
Evolve said:
Well three of the cameras you listed aren't for sale: the d-20, the genesis, and the f23 (although maybe i'm mistaken on the f23's most recent update), and I will wager a lot of money that you will see a significant drop in price in the f900 and the varicam in the next few months. Change takes time? Sure, but change is happening faster and faster, and I guarantee you, Sony and Arri and Dalsa are not sitting on the digital cinema thrones gloating, because Jim and company are kicking their asses in marketing, price, and customer loyalty.
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I forgot the Genesis was a panavision deal. So true, the genesis isn't for sale. As for the d-20, I haven't heard this was a rental only item, but I could be wrong. The f23 is definitely for sale.

Anyways..the Redrock follow focus has been out for some time and I haven't seen any plummeting prices on the Arri FFs? Explain that?
 
Evolve, I would agree with you, except I already dropped serious dime on my entire Red rig. You will see, once you own this thing, you're going to want to make it shine. You're going to want the best equipment for it. This camera has a way of making you 'do better' if that makes sense. Every shot, every cog, every idea has to be as pristine as the footage, otherwise you're doing the Red a disservice. The Red One is akin to a high class, wealthy Barbie-doll. Now in the past, a girl like this would never even go to lunch with me because I grew up on the other side of the traintracks. I would have to rent her out for 3500/day and deal with her pain in the ass demands and she still wouldn't go home with me. She'd run off and tramp herself out to another production that could afford her.. Now I get my Red for a price I can afford and she treats me real nice. (this is disturbing) I come from the mindset that if I'm going to drop $1500 on a mattebox, I mind as well spend $2300 and buy something with name recognition, like ARRI, making it easier on rentals, etc. But then, I say to myself, if you're going to spend $2300 on a mattebox, why not spend $5000 and just have the best. $5000 is insane but I'm digging Tonaci's suggestion of buying now and selling later. I think if I paid the $5200 for the MB20II today, I could sell it for at least $4800 tomorrow, assuming the Red matte box delivers by summer. With the American dollar on a continuous decline, an investment in a German product will only increase over time, assuming John W. McCain takes over the White House. Look at the 'Jay-crew' They paid $4500~ for their MB20IIs just a few months ago, granted it was a 'group deal' but they could make a profit if they sold theirs today

A $5000 mattebox is a ludicrous idea but if you're in the market to rent & own rock-solid gear, this seems to be the only option right now.. I've been looking around a lot, the Petroff I have not seen, but the MB20II is by far the prettiest, most bad-ass of them all.

I really have to see the petroff to judge it because based on all the pics I'm seeing, it looks like a toy, and call me trivial, but I don't want to put a toy on the cam.
 
garth hagey said:
Gee, I didn't know there was a 'reverse'
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Okay.. to clarify reverse of what I have commonly seen. I never intended it to be in a negative way. Mount it upside down for all I care. I love the modularity..heck I put my cradle on the side of my RED. It's your red, do what you will with it.
rig8.jpg
 
tonaci said:
Anyways..the Redrock follow focus has been out for some time and I haven't seen any plummeting prices on the Arri FFs? Explain that?
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Sure. It's not on the same quality level, not is it designed to do what the arri ff's does. We're comparing apples with apples right? That's why all of my comments have been prefaced with, IF, in regards to quality and ability to do the work.
 
rgdfilmsRED said:
Evolve, I would agree with you, except I already dropped serious dime on my entire Red rig. You will see, once you own this thing, you're going to want to make it shine. You're going to want the best equipment for it.
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Oh, I can't wait to get my rig. But I'm not buying her master primes. Doesn't matter what street she lives on. If I've got that kind of budget I'm not worried about a few bucks here or there for a MB.

rgdfilmsRED said:
This camera has a way of making you 'do better' if that makes sense. Every shot, every cog, every idea has to be as pristine as the footage, otherwise you're doing the Red a disservice. The Red One is akin to a high class, wealthy Barbie-doll. Now in the past, a girl like this would never even go to lunch with me because I grew up on the other side of the traintracks. I would have to rent her out for 3500/day and deal with her pain in the ass demands and she still wouldn't go home with me. She'd run off and tramp herself out to another production that could afford her.. Now I get my Red for a price I can afford and she treats me real nice. (this is disturbing)
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It means you've found a nice reliable loyal girl, who rewards your budgets with a laugh, simplicity and ease of use, and isn't high maintenance. For my nickel far more valuable in terms of quality of life and mental fatigue.:biggrin:
I'm glad to hear about the 'making me do better' bit. Although I always strive for the best, it's nice to push yourself further, and it's rare to get that from the tools that you use.


rgdfilmsRED said:
I come from the mindset that if I'm going to drop $1500 on a mattebox, I mind as well spend $2300 and buy something with name recognition, like ARRI, making it easier on rentals, etc. But then, I say to myself, if you're going to spend $2300 on a mattebox, why not spend $5000 and just have the best. $5000 is insane but I'm digging Tonaci's suggestion of buying now and selling later. I think if I paid the $5200 for the MB20II today, I could sell it for at least $4800 tomorrow, assuming the Red matte box delivers by summer.
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Sure a few more bucks for a BETTER mb no problem. But to buy something strictly for name recognition isn't wise.
I think if you paid 5200 for a MB20II today, you could sell it for 4800 tomorrow. Maybe even next week. But after the Red MB delivers, you and Tonaci are dreaming if you think the used Arri MB market isn't going to drop by a good chunk very quickly. And that's just my humble opinion. Keep in mind that because the Arri MB's last so long, the buyers market in the used Arri MB field is mostly comprised of people who are looking to buy a MB for the first time, ie. for their Red, and if they have the choice of an Arri or a Red, my money's on them buying a Red MB, unless the Arri is close enough in price that they'd rather a used Arri. And look who the buyers flooding into this new market are: are they 70 year old "well it's Arri or nothing" kind of crowd, or the younger, technology and price savvy "well, what have we got as options" kind of crowd. Anyways, best of luck with your decision.
 
rgdfilmsRED said:
Thanks for the feedsback.. & that'd be awesome iboyce, seeing pictures of the petroff on the red will let me get a better feel for it overall.. thanks

Where are you guys getting your Petroff's from?

I'm going to look into this next week, but I'd like to physically handle one before deciding anything. Anyone in LA know where I could glance at this?
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We got ours from Zacuto in Chicago but I first talked to a guy at ste-man.com about it and he went above and beyond for me. He told me the best place to order was from Zacuto and that they can special order from them and they'll overnight it to me. I called Zacuto and they acted dumb about it and said they only carry the 4x4, so I called ste-man back and the guy told me to hold on. A couple hours later Zacuto calls me back, apologizes and takes my order, all of which the guy at ste-man specifically helped me pick out. The next day it was here. Best customer service I've ever had!!

I'll post pictures in a couple hours, after my wife finishes cleaning the house and lets me out of my room.
 
Petroff Matte Box 5x5 2-Stage (4x5.650 holders and Top Flag) (P55-2) = $1,749.95
Right Flag (P55-13R) = $60
Left Flag (P55-13L) = $60
15mm Support Adapter (SS-10-15) = $90

=$2,005

Those were Zacuto prices, but i think they're almost exactly the same as the prices from Petroff.
 
Rather than investing more time into the "Arri MB resale value will nosedive debate", I wanted to point out an idea for thought. If you can swing the budget to get one..in a few months time you will have made income from the rental of the mb-20 if rentals go well.
 
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