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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Raven for Wedding Films

I thought about doing one Raven for gimbal and w at one point also
 
Given that most of this thread is negative, and you probably don't want to hear this; I'm just hoping that you will read this anyway.

Take this as advise given by a friend. Part of me wants to say, "Don't be stupid" and another part of me wants to say, "If you put your mind to it, you can do anything." But, do you really want to (see the following analogy)... given the options.

I know that you know whats best for you....

I also think that you think what I think... is that what you are doing is overkill, but its not.

And, Spec wise... the Raven will deliver!

In fact, I believe that you are probably thinking "I'm bringing a Jackhammer to cut a piece of cake." This may be true... in post.... may be.

But in reality, when you are shooting with it... its going to feel like you are trying to break a rock with a fork. Its going to be rude awakening for you.

So... in the end... I have to say... RENT the bloody thing and see what you are investing in before you spend $35K on it.

All I'm hearing from you is post this and post that.... Most of us know.... post-production is amazing with Red Files. But, we are talking about pre-production & production is what you are going to run in trouble with...

Things you don't know... coming from Gh4.
-Red files are dramatically less sharp compared to Gh4 files.
-You have to be on- point with regards to focus, even with focusing aids, you are going to be checking and rechecking like CRAZY, especially because its less sharper than the Gh4.
-You can only format the mini-mags in-camera (I think this will be your greatest caveat, imagine the time wasted formatting in-cam).
Source for this info is here: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?146082-Deleting-Clips
-Storage issues (already mentioned)
-Battery issues (already mentioned)

Again, RENT and figure it out.

Editted to add: After buying and/or renting, put your ego aside and honestly tell us your experience...
 
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I don't think you read what I am shooting on currently

my pix e has the same storage and battery issues-but then again it really doesn't matter
 
Steve DiMaggio said:
I don't think you read what I am shooting on currently

my pix e has the same storage and battery issues-but then again it really doesn't matter
Click to expand...

But the camera is separate from the recorder. If anything goes wrong with the recorder, you still have the camera.
 
Kabilen Mullaithilaga said:
Given that most of this thread is negative, and you probably don't want to hear this; I'm just hoping that you will read this anyway.

Take this as advise given by a friend. Part of me wants to say, "Don't be stupid" and another part of me wants to say, "If you put your mind to it, you can do anything." But, do you really want to (see the following analogy)... given the options.

I know that you know whats best for you....

I also think that you think what I think... is that what you are doing is overkill, but its not.

And, Spec wise... the Raven will deliver!

In fact, I believe that you are probably thinking "I'm bringing a Jackhammer to cut a piece of cake." This may be true... in post.... may be.

But in reality, when you are shooting with it... its going to feel like you are trying to break a rock with a fork. Its going to be rude awakening for you.

So... in the end... I have to say... RENT the bloody thing and see what you are investing in before you spend $35K on it.

All I'm hearing from you is post this and post that.... Most of us know.... post-production is amazing with Red Files. But, we are talking about pre-production & production is what you are going to run in trouble with...

Things you don't know... coming from Gh4.
-Red files are dramatically less sharp compared to Gh4 files.
-You have to be on- point with regards to focus, even with focusing aids, you are going to be checking and rechecking like CRAZY, especially because its less sharper than the Gh4.
-You can only format the mini-mags in-camera (I think this will be your greatest caveat, imagine the time wasted formatting in-cam).
Source for this info is here: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?146082-Deleting-Clips
-Storage issues (already mentioned)
-Battery issues (already mentioned)

Again, RENT and figure it out.

Editted to add: After buying and/or renting, put your ego aside and honestly tell us your experience...
Click to expand...
- Of course it's less sharp, the others in question are over sharpened a lot of the time. RED images will look fine.
- Agree, focus can be challenging but we have no idea Steve's skill level at run and gun focusing. If he's doing 6 figure weddings, good chance he's probably been getting by just fine in that category. But I won't deny the challenge part of it. Having proper lenses and a good FF will go a long way.
- I would not be formatting cards in the field for a wedding. Unfortunately, I think you have to bite the bullet and get enough mags to last a full day and maybe a couple of backups just in case. You only get one shot with a wedding. If I see a problem with footage, I want to be able to go back to the mag to check it.
- ProRes (which Steve is already using) are not tiny file sizes either. He's probably used to the storage side.
- Batteries will present challenges. Just have to have enough of them, and you need to be able to hot swap.
 
I'm curious why the hard push on red? Why not the c300ii? I do weddings for a living and would be hard pressed to use reds on a wedding day. Gear doesn't make the films. I follow a few who are still using 5d's and now the 1dx ii that are killing it profit wise.
 
I don't like canon stuff at all sorry, probably my Nikon slant. also I do have other interests in using red for other stuff.

I tend to use zone focusing when I can't get a good look via evf. I shoot 35mm and medium format as a hobby, usually in low light. So I am pretty good at zone focusing.

i messed with a c300. When ufc was in a gym shooting Eddie Alvarez, I happens to be there shooting Frankie, I'm not into shoulder rigs, I shot a couple weddings with a bmcc shoulder rig, hated it.

I have a pretty good package together now after red called me today after seeing this thread. Thanks guys for the help.
 
I think it's the wrong tool. I mean, really, much more benefits for run n gun and lowlight from Sony, but for everything else, red
 
Wow, this thread blew up. One important thing is that Steve finds the RED system to be advantageous to his business and creativity. I've been in spec-comparison hell trying to figure out if i should get the S-W, Varicam LT, C300ii, FS7, etc or save up and add extra financing for a Weapon. But I've shot on all the cameras except the LT (which in other ways presents problems for my kit) and the RED system is by far the most exciting to me. I was able to do a first-light on footage from an Epic Dragon on a 2-day shoot before handing off to post and I just couldn't believe it. I didn't find it wildly more cumbersome than my GH4 + Pix, but a lot of that credit goes toward my AC. Steve is here for some RED specific advice and sometimes we can't always articulate exactly why we've decided on what tool to use...

I would definitely consider the S-W + Raven route. I know it jacks the price up a bit but you might notice some extra quality in there, especially if you find yourself overcranking. 96fps at 4k (10:1) is kinda nutty and is a major selling point for me. I have a whole host of reasons why the raven wasn't an option for me (fixed mount, not true s35, fixed olpf etc) but maybe you'd find that the S-W + Raven could be a killer combo. I'd also not rule out having the gh4/pix around for backup or even a 2nd cam for a bit...

EDIT: Wanted to clarify that I'm not trying to come back at everyone hard...lots of folks read the first post and add a reply...but there are just pages of people answering a different question than was asked and Steve has acknowledged the suggestions and explained himself a few times. Just trying to keep on track of the original thread.
 
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thanks man, yeah I think I have settled on a W/Raven combo after red got a hold of me this afternoon, probably roll with 6 bricks, (2) 512 (2) 240, v lock i/o and top handles. This will actually be way more simple to set up than the gh/4+pix combo for me
 
Steve DiMaggio said:
thanks man, yeah I think I have settled on a W/Raven combo after red got a hold of me this afternoon, probably roll with 6 bricks, (2) 512 (2) 240, v lock i/o and top handles. This will actually be way more simple to set up than the gh/4+pix combo for me
Click to expand...

So good to hear! I totally hear you on it being more simple...also excited to know that a bumped HDMI only means my monitor went down...and not the entire take.
 
Steve,

Amazing how this thread has developed. I think at this point in your career you are well aware of your business needs and I for one say welcome to the Red ecosystem. You've obvously thought hard about your needs and I think you've made a good call for going with Scarlet W and Raven. It will fill several niches well from your high end clients to even lower end jobs where the Raven can be your main cam and your GH4 as a second cam.

Someone brought up the question of formatting your cards while on shoot.... I have used my Epic Dragon on doc shoots and what I would do is pre-format my cards and have them labelled so I just need to change cards and not worry about formatting... however at the end fo the day formatting doesn't take that long. Seeing that you are obviously not new to this, you would know your media requirements for a typical shoot... but can't strees enough to have enough media... maybe consider a couple more 240GB cards? Best of luck with everything!!

Regards,
 
yeah I try not to format when I shoot, having 2 different types of media makes it tough, another reason I would like to move to an all inclusive system along with batteries, I have like 4 different kinds right now!

I should have most stuff figured out sometime this week and hope to have the order in sooner than later

steve
 
Kabilen Mullaithilaga said:
Given that most of this thread is negative, and you probably don't want to hear this; I'm just hoping that you will read this anyway.

Take this as advise given by a friend. Part of me wants to say, "Don't be stupid" and another part of me wants to say, "If you put your mind to it, you can do anything." But, do you really want to (see the following analogy)... given the options.

I know that you know whats best for you....

I also think that you think what I think... is that what you are doing is overkill, but its not.

And, Spec wise... the Raven will deliver!

In fact, I believe that you are probably thinking "I'm bringing a Jackhammer to cut a piece of cake." This may be true... in post.... may be.

But in reality, when you are shooting with it... its going to feel like you are trying to break a rock with a fork. Its going to be rude awakening for you.

So... in the end... I have to say... RENT the bloody thing and see what you are investing in before you spend $35K on it.

All I'm hearing from you is post this and post that.... Most of us know.... post-production is amazing with Red Files. But, we are talking about pre-production & production is what you are going to run in trouble with...

Things you don't know... coming from Gh4.
-Red files are dramatically less sharp compared to Gh4 files.
-You have to be on- point with regards to focus, even with focusing aids, you are going to be checking and rechecking like CRAZY, especially because its less sharper than the Gh4.
-You can only format the mini-mags in-camera (I think this will be your greatest caveat, imagine the time wasted formatting in-cam).
Source for this info is here: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?146082-Deleting-Clips
-Storage issues (already mentioned)
-Battery issues (already mentioned)

Again, RENT and figure it out.

Editted to add: After buying and/or renting, put your ego aside and honestly tell us your experience...
Click to expand...

What do you guys use for nailing focus? Peaking? Sharpening on the monitor? I've seen a lot of out of focus Raven footage, so it seems to be a common error.
 
Thought I might chime in since I've shot about 10 weddings this season so far on Epic Dragon. The biggest concerns I found (and fortunately I was prepared for) is managing file space the day of, being smart about your battery choices, and how physically exhausting it can be to fly a glidecam rig for 12 hours. So for weddings I have for the RED:


2 240gb cards (per camera). Have to think ahead to decide when you're going to change cards and offload to your computer. But these cards are enough, I throughly recommend having two cards so that you can shoot with one while the other transfers. I typically shoot 13:1 compression until it gets dark, then 8:1. 5:1 is severe overkill for an event.

2 190wh batteries (per camera). Now this wont be possible on the ronin as much (maybe a battery belt is a good idea?) but you'll need at least 2 of them and swap them throughout the day, again keeping track so you don't get caught with your pants down. If you're running 2 cameras, I recommend getting a fast quad charger
(2 batteries for each shooter, share the charger) like the incredibly expensive Anton Bauer charger with the handle, as it charges as fast as I use the other battery.

Rigs mostly depend on preference. I shoot on a Glidecam hd4000 and x-10 vest all day, which is very taxing with the epic being so heavy (for wearing it for about 12 hours of shooting). Hoping the Scarlet-W I ordered will leave me not feeling like garbage the next day. I've modified the HD4000 though, adding a gold mount plate so that I can use my battery as a counterweight, then ran DTAP up the post and adapted it to lemo at the top. I can post a picture if you would like. I have a side handle and use an ac7 through SDI as the monitor, so it weights almost 22 Ibs before putting it on the vest and arm.

Side handle - Yes, get it. I have one preordered for the weapon bodies so I can use it asap. The DSMC 1 side handle isn't so grand, but it's an absolute must for being able to change settings as quick as possible. Tactile buttons win over the touch screen in this instance, because you don't want to have to think about changing settings, just be comfortable so you're focused on looking through the screen, not at it.

Something that isn't so fun to deal with is that Red cameras just suck down light like no other, so granted you're not in a position to change the lighting, then you should shoot with fast glass and likely be prepared to digitally reduce some of the noise (neat video does wonders to Red footage since the Raw image wasn't already NRed). I say go for the standard olpf for the whole day instead of trying to stress and change to the LLOLPF.

It's difficult, I'm not going to lie. But I'm just obsessed with pushing the quality and level of work I put out so the extra effort for quality are worth it to me. I love showing the couple some of the slo-mo right after we shoot it, and I can't wait for the Auto Black shade in the Scarlet-w, since going into the menu every time keeps me from doing more slomo. But hey, it's doable for sure.

Sorry if I was rambling, I just did a double wedding weekend driving a good deal between them, so since I'm still nearly running on fumes today some of my responses might have been half-baked.

Hopefully I helped, I think ravens at weddings are going to be more common. Good thing they will at least looks awesome. Hope I helped in some capacity.
 
thanks man! yeah I think I am going to get 1-2 tb of cards, that is what I use now, I only end up shoot about 750 gb per wedding in a format that is pretty close to the r3d at 5.1

I use my ronin maybe 1 hour total, I am very selective with my reception footage. Usually I am locked right in with the DJ so I know when and what is happening and be prepared.

It doesn't have to be chaos, prep is the key, I am prepping right now for a wedding on sunday actually reading this.

I was going to ask about changing the LPF. I think the biggest hinderance will be changing to SLOMO during pictures and reception, currently I have one camera just set up for 96fps while I shoot in 24. We are getting it down to a science.

The hard part is making sure it isn't cookie cutter, how do you like the screen in the daylight for focusing?
 
Derek Carlson said:
What do you guys use for nailing focus? Peaking? Sharpening on the monitor? I've seen a lot of out of focus Raven footage, so it seems to be a common error.
Click to expand...

There is this focus option that allows you see how sharp an image can be after post-sharpening, zoom in... check and double check.
Still have to sharpen it in post to get it that way.
 
Steve DiMaggio said:
thanks man! yeah I think I am going to get 1-2 tb of cards,
Click to expand...

Good choice on that!

Steve DiMaggio said:
I was going to ask about changing the LPF. I think the biggest hinderance will be changing to SLOMO during pictures and reception, currently I have one camera just set up for 96fps while I shoot in 24. We are getting it down to a science
Click to expand...

You will need at least 5-10 minutes in a clean environment to change OLPFs. I have done it in the field and that usually between set-ups when I'm lighting the next scene. My AC's then find a clean spot (sometimes the camera van or sometimes in a car) and then they get to it. For high speed changes, can't stress enough to make sure you have the appropriate black shading done during prep. For my Epic I used to have 6 different presets.
 
awesome, yeah I dont plan on changing in the field, if I have an hour or so while family pics are being done I would consider it for intros, usually my wife shoots 96 fps of the bride and groom while I prep reception, if there is no dj lighting I think I will have to change.
 
well @steve, you clearly already made up your mind long before you even created this post. You asked for feedback and opinion from other's who've attempted using RED for weddings and have obviously ignored our opinions advising to RENT and try it out. (so what was the point?).


That being said, my experience with RED vs DSLR ( GH4) is as such:

I own both and would throw the gh4 on glidecam/ gimbal and keep the Red on sticks. The RED was simply too heavy, ate up too much media, and was a battery hog. Matching the two footages was always pain and there was always a subtle but distinct difference. Then one day a bride said to me one day... why is the moving footage (gh4) so much more SHARPER and cleaner than the the static footage (RED). It wasn't that it was cleaner, but as we all know, RED's have a softer, more filmic look. She preferred the Sharper, moving shots of the gh4 (like all brides do) . It was then i realized that a few 1lb gh4's (a7s), shooting 4k, on a glide-cam , Edelkron slider, Pocket jib, and drone would bring a lot more production value to my wedding videos , at far more affordable price than one $20,000 RED package ever could.

So i reserved my red for narratives films / music videos... and go smaller for weddings.

Everyone's experience will vary... Best Of Luck buddy....
 
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