Raven for Wedding Films

[Steve DiMaggio]

Guys/Girls

Next year is filling up fast and I am making plans to upgrade our gear from gh4/pix e5 rigs to ravens. We do wedding films, trailers ect. Also my wife is a professional photographer so I would love to go out on her shoots and pull some stills. We are steadily moving into the north jersey/ny market right now and want to push the limits to get there.

We need 2 rigs, max hour an a half recording for ceremonies. I have one ronin m rig and we would use the other rig on monopod or tripod.

What do you think of these 2 packages abelcine put together, they have been very helpful so far. Shooting all leica r lenses we already use

1 RDC-790-0522 RED RAVEN BASE I/O V-LOCK PACKAGE * 2
2 RDC-730-0019 RED DSMC2 RED TOUCH 4.7" LCD *
3 SW-FLEET-Q4A
Switronix Four Position 3-Stud Fast Simultaneous Li-Ion Charger *1
4 SW-HC-7R
Switronix HC-7R Hypercore SLIM V-Mount Battery for RED 4
5 RDC-750-0075 RED MINI-MAG 120GB * 4
6 RDC-750-0055 RED STATION RED MINI-MAG * 1
7 RDC-720-0050 RED DSMC2 SIDE HANDLE * 2

Here is an example of our recent work
https://vimeo.com/172463227

 

[Kabilen Mullaithilaga]

Have you used Red Cameras before?
Not trying to discourage you, but why dont' you try renting it out on a gig first. Have a second shooter with Gh4s on hand as a back up.

 

[Steve DiMaggio]

I haven't, but the future is red for wedding films, plain as day, I also do alot of corporate work which I hate doing, but it pays sometimes. My workflow isn't incredibly different using the pix e5h's regarding proxy, color grading (vlog) ect.

The camera is just a tool to tell the story, currently the gh4's are great, but this is our main source of income now and we need to push the boundries

I am used to juggling large 422hq files. We shoot with 3 cameras now, looking to work down to 2 and raise the quality.

 

[Maik Müller]

In general it looks like a nice start and should work for what you have in mind. Not sure if i would feel the need for a SH on the RONIN-rig, probably not. Sidekick makes more sense here, or just touchscreen+foolcontrol. But that depends on how versatile you want it.

However, i would think about media and batteries again, it feels a little basic for that kind of event-filming. And on top, with the current stuff you will swap media and batteries in that time-span you've in mind (and that 1.5h should be considered as absolute minimum i guess). I would try to avoid that as much as possible when covering live-events.

Those SLIM batteries are probably great for your RONIN setup, where weight/size matters the most (also keep an eye on those new upcoming REDVOLT-V). But maybe bigger batteries for the second rig? Also, two 120gb mags are more expensive than one 240gb mag. 512GB would give you much more headroom. Storage is always eaten up quickly (planning on shooting slowmo here and there? ).

And then my next thought would be...

...Scarlet-W?

 

[Steve DiMaggio]

originally I wanted to go scarlet w with a7sii, even started the paperwork

then I got an a7sii and hated matching the footage with the gh4's so I got rid of the a7sii and to be honest the 10bit 422 from the gh4 smoked anything I got out of the a7sii, even in some low light conditions, maybe I didn't spend enough time

The scarlet 2 for main rig with raven for ronin might be a good setup, really trying to keep it to 35K. That is manageable for us, it is crazy how fast our business grew in 6 months, I thought I would be having this discussion a year from now, but with the availability of the actual cameras I need to think about 2018 in 2016

oh yeah, I would probably shoot the ronin camera hand held when the bride is getting ready, also with a tripod and slider, so maybe the side handle isn't totally necessary?

I have an email into red ny to see if I can stop by and put my hands on the raven

yes I current shoot 90% of my dance floor footage and bride/groom picture time footage in 96 fps 1080p
go to 1:56 this is from my brother in laws wedding last week, my wife shot it on gh4 in 96 internal, love the slo mo-went with a very light and airy feel here, leica 90 with .9 hitech formatt
https://vimeo.com/173665617

lots of slo mo here, this was my first time out with the gh4 and basically when my wife and I decided we could do something special for people and make a living at it-she has always been a photographer
https://vimeo.com/157462012

 

[Kalechi Noel]

I am not sure your level of skill and wedding experience .... But For shooting weddings , you can get so much more for your money with gh4, canon's and sony's .

For weddings , one needs to be mobile , have reliable long lasting battery, XLR inputs , and Ofcourse adequate media . Unfortunately , red's don't make the top 5 list in any of those categories mentioned above . It will only excel in picture quality (sometimes ) and will require grading ti make footage really stand out .

Mother sad part is brides might not even appreciate all the work and effort ... And more than likely you are finishing in 2k.

IMO , reds are cinema cameras and are for controlled environments (movies , music videos , commercial work etc ). The unpredictability of weddings and the run and gun nature makes me advise against it ... As a main camera atleast .

 

[Kris Tait]

For weddings Raven is not going to cut it. With all that activity, dancing, vows, glorious moment, you need Weapon. Raven is for beginners, and wedding films are far more advanced than that now. There's no way someone shooting high-end wedding films could get all that amazing footage to fit onto Raven's sensor. Ravens sensor is similar to the GH4's sensor in size so if you're upgrading from that you need to move on to weapon and the 8k vista vision sensor is the best way to future proof those weddings. Wedding films are like the rollerblading of film production and should treated accordingly. Weapon is for Weddings. I'm sure most agree.

 

[Steve DiMaggio]

there are probably about a dozen guys in the world shooting reds for weddings. It's done every day in the Asian and Indian market. I'm not really asking an opinion on what the market is asking for, I deal with it every day and it is my main source of income, I am very Aware of what a couple is willing to pay and why they would pay it. I'm a professional just as much as anyone else on this board shooting for a living. Before this I did music industry demo videos for years, I left it because I enjoy shooting weddings and make a crap
ton more than I ever could continuing to stay in the music business.

although this thread took a predictable turn, as wedding films seemed to be viewed as the "cover band" of the cinema world, there are huge reasons to use a red camera. Mainly the raw aspect, we have shot wedding film and photo for over a decade and having raw in camera proves a great advantage.

Every single reason a film maker would use a red on a studio set can be shared in an event setting.

also all my films are delivered in 4K via cloud and streaming services. You would be surprised when a couple is broaching 5 figures for a 4 minute film what is to be expected. Having 4.5k will help with simulated slider moves, Bing able to crop and and get 2 angles from one camera plus much more.

So now that I have defend my reasons for looking toward red for like the umpteenth time on here. Any other recommendations regarding the package that was recommended? I am almost thinking a scarlet w with side handle for getting ready work with the Raven stripped down for gimbal work.

also much of weddings these days before hand are staged, there is much time to set up shots ect.
Maybe you guys had the old dude with mustache running around with the shoulder rig with light on it for your wedding, things have changed drastically lol. Same old song new band though I guess.

 

[Steve DiMaggio]

At zeb

gettjng ready and the details is Exactly what I want it for, no one takes traditional dance floor footage, unless you wear a black t shirt and black jeans to wedding. I prefer my Tom ford ties. I provide a luxury product and everything we do we try to reflect in that.

 

[Erich Roland]

I'm no wedding expert, but I have over 35 years under my belt (as a dp) and using the right tool for the job is something I feel strongly about. I'm guessing that being ready (locked and loaded) for the critical moments is way more important then the highest quality, hence the batteries, media, size and weight become paramount. The next important aspect looks like low light ability as many wedding end up in dark parties.

For these reasons I would look seriously at the Sony Eco-system. From the A7s on the small and extreme low light side up through the Fs7 you get everything that weddings seem to want and need. And once you've used a A7 on a gimble you'll never want to pick up the hefty alternates.

I highly recommend you rent a REd and shoot a wedding before you buy-in. I believe that some of the things above will become possible issues long before a client notices a quality bump.

One guys opinion anyway.

 

[Michael Tiemann]

there are probably about a dozen guys in the world shooting reds for weddings. It's done every day in the Asian and Indian market. I'm not really asking an opinion on what the market is asking for, I deal with it every day and it is my main source of income, I am very Aware of what a couple is willing to pay and why they would pay it. I'm a professional just as much as anyone else on this board shooting for a living. Before this I did music industry demo videos for years, I left it because I enjoy shooting weddings and make a crap
ton more than I ever could continuing to stay in the music business.

I hear you!

although this thread took a predictable turn, as wedding films seemed to be viewed as the "cover band" of the cinema world, there are huge reasons to use a red camera. Mainly the raw aspect, we have shot wedding film and photo for over a decade and having raw in camera proves a great advantage.

Every single reason a film maker would use a red on a studio set can be shared in an event setting.

also all my films are delivered in 4K via cloud and streaming services. You would be surprised when a couple is broaching 5 figures for a 4 minute film what is to be expected.

Agree!

Having 4.5k will help with simulated slider moves, Bing able to crop and and get 2 angles from one camera plus much more.

Here I think you are going a bridge too far. I used to think that 6K would be my answer to both of those things. Not really. If you don't move the camera, you don't get the perspective. Panning across a static shot does not a slider move make. Similarly, even with 6K (especially when delivering to 4K rather than HD), getting two shots from one is not really a thing.

So now that I have defend my reasons for looking toward red for like the umpteenth time on here. Any other recommendations regarding the package that was recommended? I am almost thinking a scarlet w with side handle for getting ready work with the Raven stripped down for gimbal work.

also much of weddings these days before hand are staged, there is much time to set up shots ect.
Maybe you guys had the old dude with mustache running around with the shoulder rig with light on it for your wedding, things have changed drastically lol. Same old song new band though I guess.

I think that if you cross off your list the stuff that really doesn't work (trying to use excess resolution to pretend you have two cameras in one body, simulated sliders), and you focus on the things that do work (gorgeous RAW footage, powerful cameras on mobile gimbal platforms), you'll see that a pair of RAVENs can do a lot. You should think carefully and foremost about your glass. What glass gives you the FOV, DOF, sharpness, bokeh, etc., that you want. If all that glass works with the RAVEN sensor size, hallelujah. If you need to bump up to SCARLET-W (either because you need the larger sensor or because you need the PL mount), so be it. Let the glass and the gimbal be your guide and then pick the right camera for that.

 

[Steve DiMaggio]

right now I am using all leica r glass, it has done amazing things for the character in our films. The issue I am having with the gh4's is the footage falls apart when cropped in and it also falls apart at 96 fps, gets pretty much unusable unless perfectly exposed ect.

In regards to it being the right tool, the red is much much more flexible tool in post than the pro res 422 files I am dealing with now from the gh4 to the pixe, they are great but don't have the lattitude I need grading wise sometimes with the different light conditions ect. I had an a7sii and hated it, everything about it, from the color science to the 29 minute max record time to the form factor, no 10 bit out for the pix e, hated it.

Yes I do plan on renting first. Also it should be noted that our cameras roll on less than 10 minutes of "stuff" besides the major events, every shot is thought out, we work with very very very high end photographers. I don't think anyone we have worked with has been payed less than 10K for the day. We have the luxury of taking our time when working with vendors like this.

also it should be noted that I do have corporate stuff come up all the time, I just don;t seek it out, anyways I didn't want this thread to become a "justification" to why I needed it but more, am I missing something in regards to the eco system in general, waiting to hear from red in ny about going up and getting some hands on

 

[Michael Reiken]

You'll be very happy with the Raven. I got mine few weeks back and am blown away, as I too came from a DSLR. Such a major difference in shooting and workflow. Just make sure you invest in at least 4+ batteries, maybe more for you as you do all day events. The Hypercore Slims are very nice ( I got 4). Also invest in lots of mini mags. 128GB card fills up quick. Throw the Raven on a Ronin M, and it works like a beauty. I assume you have fast drives/computer to off load media? When shooting on set having that USB 3 speeds up the transfer a lot.

 

[Louis Maddalena]

I have a friend who runs a wedding photo and video business on the side of his retouching business.

He books me to shoot his really high end videos for him, I don't mind because the money is awesome and its a nice change of pace. I've shot a bunch of weddings on both DSMC1 and DSMC2 cameras, MX through Dragon. Honestly though if I didn't shoot RED in a commercial atmosphere I don't think I wouldn't have bought them for the wedding work I do.

But if you want to shoot weddings with the RED it is definitely doable as long as you have enough media ( I typically shoot 2TB per wedding, between HDRX when needed and high frame rate stuff) You're also going to need a lot of batteries. I bring 6 Bricks per camera.

For lenses you're definitely going to want some fast ones, I use the LLO OLPF during the dancing and SkinTone all other times, but with the Raven you'll be stuck with the Standard OLPF 100% of the time, meaning that you'll need faster glass when you're at the reception.

Also make sure you can handle what happens after the shoot. 4.5k is a lot for somebody who has not used it much, and you'll quickly fill up many of your offices drives while you edit, especially if you're the type of business that is shooting more than one wedding a week.

And remember, even more important in weddings than in general production: "If you have one, you have none" Make sure you have a back up or all electronic pieces.

 

[Brendan H. Banks]

Just a quick thing -- Data shouldn't be an issue for Steve. He's been doing 4k in 422 HQ which is actually a bigger hog of space than if he does 4.5k at 5:1. I'm making the exact same jump as he is (GH4+Pix) and noticed that in most cases my drive space will be roughly the same.

Steve, definitely download some R3Ds that are floating around and mess with them on your computer. I found my machine that I edit 4k 422HQ on to be just fine with 5k 5:1 footage...performs somewhat similarly to the HQ stuff from my Pix. I'm making the move from GH4+Pix to S-W after having DP'd a job where I shot Epic Dragon and found it to be really fantastic. The biggest thing you'll notice is a huge change in your DR...but you'll need to work on your color stuff a bit to adjust to the different sensor (though I also really like the dragon color when put through RedLogFilm). I don't personally do wedding shooting, but a thing I've done before is buy up the base level stuff and rent extras of things (media, batteries) and see how much you ACTUALLY use. In a lot of cases I save myself money while also being completely covered by doing it this way. All the best!

 

[Derek Carlson]

It seems to be a badge of shame amongst the RED crowd to say you shoot wedding films. Wedding films are my primary income and I'm making pretty good money doing it. I plan on using my S-W in conjunction with my a7sII on the Ronin. I'll probably capture ceremony ProRes 2k only to save card space, but having the flexibility of RAW to cover over stupid mistakes like not dialing in the right color temperature is invaluable. These cameras are so light and nimble, I don't see why you wouldn't use it for run-n-gun stuff?

 

[Steve DiMaggio]

Thanks for all the great feed back! I currently offload on a maxed out 2016 Mbp and 4 tb rugged drive. I was wondering about transfer rates though. Maybe I should drop the side arms and go with 4 512 and some larger batteries mixed with the slims for ronin

 

[Brendan H. Banks]

Thanks for all the great feed back! I currently offload on a maxed out 2016 Mbp and 4 tb rugged drive. I was wondering about transfer rates though. Maybe I should drop the side arms and go with 4 512 and some larger batteries mixed with the slims for ronin

Definitely look into alternate power solutions. A lot of folks have been buying the camera power adapter for their Ronins to be able to use DTap to power the camera from the Ronin batt. I'm going to mount a "dummy" vmount plate on my ronin handlebars and run a Lemo->DTap to power the cam.

BTW I've seen some wedding films recently and it's a whole different ball game now. I was at a friend's wedding about 2 years ago and they were shooting a fleet of FS700s with external recorders and prime Ziess glass. I was very jealous of their extensive kit! Made something beautiful that my friend and her new husband will cherish forever, plus they employed some cool techniques throughout the piece. Just wanna toss that out there because I do know what Derek is pointing out.

 

[Michael Tiemann]

Thanks for all the great feed back! I currently offload on a maxed out 2016 Mbp and 4 tb rugged drive. I was wondering about transfer rates though. Maybe I should drop the side arms and go with 4 512 and some larger batteries mixed with the slims for ronin

When I shoot WEAPON-CF full bore (~ 300MB/sec), X minutes of recording requires X minutes of offload over USB3. If you shoot RAVEN full bore (140 MB/sec), X minutes of recording will be a little less than X/2 minutes of offload.

 

[Steve DiMaggio]

Definitely look into alternate power solutions. A lot of folks have been buying the camera power adapter for their Ronins to be able to use DTap to power the camera from the Ronin batt. I'm going to mount a "dummy" vmount plate on my ronin handlebars and run a Lemo->DTap to power the cam.

BTW I've seen some wedding films recently and it's a whole different ball game now. I was at a friend's wedding about 2 years ago and they were shooting a fleet of FS700s with external recorders and prime Ziess glass. I was very jealous of their extensive kit! Made something beautiful that my friend and her new husband will cherish forever, plus they employed some cool techniques throughout the piece. Just wanna toss that out there because I do know what Derek is pointing out.

thanks man, yeah, I'll take a happy and deeply touched couple, or like today a very thankfully military family ( I shot a memorial service). Makes alot of it worth it