RAPTOR vs GEMINI vs HELIUM

[Curren Sheldon]

I want to buy back into the Red system. Had an Epic-W for a few years and miss the Red image and the raw flexibility. Everything else I've shot on (C300s, FX9/6s, EVA-1s, etc) are all great cameras, but just fall short in the IQ department. Red and Red's raw is just another level of IQ and I'm doing more branded work and less observational documentary work, so can deal with the intricacies of the Red system.

My question is, should I go for the V-Raptor or snag a very nicely priced Helium or Gemini? In my opinion:
- I like the V-Raptor for almost every reason - smaller, lighter form factor, VV sensor, RF mount, better frame rates, better audio/XLR module, cheaper media, newer tech, etc. BUT...
- I love DSMC2 for the much more manageable file size compression ratios (and this is a big deal for bigger projects). And, can also snag a Helium package for less than half the price of the V-Raptor.

I think the deciding factor would be if the V-Raptor sensor in 4k downsampled ProRes is close to a Gemini at 5k raw. This would negate the file size argument for projects that can't deal with the enormous V-Raotor HQ, MQ, and LQ file sizes.

But do you all find the image that much nicer on the V-Raptor compared to either the Helium or Gemini sensors?

 

[Zack Birlew]

If you're not worried about the cameras being EOL'ed within the next few years, DSMC2 would be perfectly fine for 4K, however, I would caution you that 8K is becoming the new standard so even if you opt to go LQ or drop to 4K on V-Raptor, you'll at least have the option to use 8K when you need it. Plus, if you're going to spend as much to get into the RED system again with accessories and everything, the RED V-Raptor is clearly the most economical high end option just for savings on media alone. I'm currently looking very hard at non-RED options like the URSA 12K and Nikon Z9 but there's still some time before my next feature so I'm wondering what RED might do next and if it will be in time but if I had to choose RED and had all the money to choose from the current RED lineup, V-Raptor is the clear choice for whatever I could want to do with a RED camera.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Monstro is also DSMC2 and has 8k, why don't you consider this option? There are som second hand cool package out there (like mine ;-)) and speaking about media it's much more efficient (until now) than DSMC3.

 

[Andrew Reese]

8K is really not a new standard, outside of high-end VFX and nature doc work where resolution really has its benefits... Consider that Arri still is the #1 camera used on large productions, which only offers a max resolution of 4.5k (LF) and has limited frame rates. Alexa mini offers even less resolution and still is requested over my Gemini or a rental Monstro often by my more particular clients that know what they want. The same goes for VV/FF vs S35.... Arri's latest camera yet to be released will be s35 format and they have made the statement that they see S35 not going away for a long time. Also, keep in mind the majority of high-end cinema zooms, vintage cinema primes and many anamorphics are only s35 coverage and most wide angle FF lenses (35mm and below) do not cover VV sensors at 8k resolution, so you will be forced to crop down to 6-7k to reduce vignette (Leica R 19mm for example). Increased DOF from a VV sensor sounds great too, but pulling focus wide open with that much DOF actually makes an AC's job much harder and you will end up stopping down to find more of the frame in focus especially on gimbal or moving shots. I have used my Gemini side by side with Monstro on many shoots in a 4k timeline and I find very little perceived differences between (8k & 5k) in sharpness or micro-contrast if you are using sharp glass and hitting critical focus on the Gemini. I also found Gemini to have slightly higher DR and better color reproduction than monstro (Gasp) and I still believe Gemini to be the best lowlight camera RED has ever made due to its larger photo-sites (5 μm Monstro vs. 6 μm Gemini). There are tests out there if you dig on Youtube comparing low-light performance of Raptor to Gemini. Downsampling from (8k -> 4k) does have great advantages in post production in terms of cleaning up noise, re-framing or for sharpening stills for print work, but file sizes can become a disadvantage for shoots requiring > 1TB of data storage (becoming very common) especially if considering DCT (Raptor / Komodo) over wavelet compression (Monstro / Gemini / Dragon / Helium). SSD media storage is becoming cheaper, but it doesn't mean you should "go wild" with data rates as the cost starts to add up over a shoot and ultimately gets transferred onto the client, who may be unaware of these hidden cost prior to production. I can easily rack up 2TB of footage on a typical production with my Gemini, so I couldn't imagine what I would come away with using Raptor. There are many other factors to consider with Raptor as well such as the non-interchangeable RF mount which will require extra dollars in aftermarket accessories to the get the camera to accept large PL / EF lenses with an appropriately supported and heavy duty locking mount. I went through this with my Komodo and there were a lot of hidden costs and once built up with all the additional accessories the form factor and weight diminishes its advantages over a streamlined DSCM2 setup and quite honestly it just doesn't feel as legit or reliable considering all the aftermarket parts you are relying on. If you intend to shoot on RF glass the majority of the time, then V-Raptor is a clear winner here, but personally I don't think you will see RF lenses on most higher end jobs. You will still find yourself needing to offer PL / EF glass options the majority of the time at least for the next few years to clients so prepare to buy a kippertie revolva or adapta, which will run you about an additional $2-5k if you get both the PL and EF options, filters and mounting components. I hate to keep bringing it up, but Raptor also has a sensor stitch issue right now that needs to be resolved before high end productions will trust using this camera and have no fear of post production headaches. There is also the fact that it only accepts micro sized V-mount batteries, so what if you already own AB batteries or a production is using gold mount for everything? You will also need to add expander modules to get features like AB battery support, CTRL, SYNC, etc. which again adds to size and weight putting it about the same form factor as DSMC2 (just not as tall). I really wanted to buy V-Raptor at initial release but when I considered all of these factors compared to my Gemini (which paid for itself years ago) or a rental Monstro (if I need 8k) those options are the clear winner for my line of work at this time, especially considering some of the industry is still requesting Alexa as a standard (Audi for example). If you need 8K, then a used monstro would be a great option right now at its greatly reduced cost. If your clients aren't asking for 8K, then Gemini or even a cheaper Scarlet-W is the clear winner there. I believe in about 1-2 years, after RED sorts out some of the current hiccups, and aftermarket accessories are readily available and with the release of V-Raptor XL, then we may see a strong industry shift from DSCM2 -> DSMC3. I would say If you were renting a Raptor for a production and the cost of the camera was transferred onto the rental house then by all means shoot on that camera, but if you are a smaller business owner/operator type scenario like myself looking to make immediate return on investment you better think twice as there are a lot of hidden costs, catches, and unavailable accessories at this time. Just my two cents take it for what it is...