Raising noise floor in 20'x20' room

[Nathan Apffel]

In advance, thank you for your wisdom!

I am looking for a light source(s) that will evenly raise the noise floor of a 20x20' room 2+ stops from the ceiling to floor corners without any real hotspots. I am shooting in 5 similar rooms, each with different layouts.

We need something that is relatively mobile (travels up and down stairs without complete breakdown) and will run off wall AC (no genies are allowed on property).

We are shooting at 11mm so we see the world. Also, certain rooms have windows looking outside, so daylight balanced is necessary.

I was originally thinking a chimera right above camera, but any advice or knowledge would be much appriciated!

 

[Brian F Kobylarz]

Without a doubt, one of the new remote phosphor fixtures would be perfect here.

Check out the Cineo HS. http://www.cineolighting.com/index.php/pages/product_hs/89

A single HS should cover all of your requirements.
Very powerful, no color shift when dimmed, extremely energy efficient, more even spread than a chimera.
The color temp is defined by the choice of polycarbonate panel - if you need a different temp, switching out panels takes only a moment.
If AC power is available, this is the best solution. If you anticipate needing to go with batteries, the BBS Area48 produces the same light quality at a lower output than the HS.

I have one of the HS models and two of the LS - can attest to a very high quality build and exceptional performance.

 

[Glen Powell]

I had to light a similar series of rooms for a project, and ended up with these lights inside China Balls - http://www.alzovideo.com/alzo_800_BB_hmi_cool_lite.htm - just to bring up the overall flat ambient light, then lit the elements the way I normally would. These light from ALZO are pretty much disposable, and the China Balls are dirt cheap as well, I did need these lantern locks: http://www.filmtools.com/lantern-lock-china-ball-system.html… Ended up with a dozen or so in my equipment room that I haven't used since, but who knows what the future brings.

Problem is - at 11mm will you see the ceiling? Aren't you into 'Fear and Loathing' territory?


***Caveat*** these ALZO lamps are less than reliable, and we anded up over the course of the job (2 years of shooting web episodes in a house in suburban in Toronto for CDN Tire) we bought multiple units to cover when they failed - though the next day they would work again. They are cheap to buy, but you get what you pay for...

 

[Mark K.]

Without a doubt, one of the new remote phosphor fixtures would be perfect here.

Check out the Cineo HS. http://www.cineolighting.com/index.php/pages/product_hs/89

A single HS should cover all of your requirements.
Very powerful, no color shift when dimmed, extremely energy efficient, more even spread than a chimera.
The color temp is defined by the choice of polycarbonate panel - if you need a different temp, switching out panels takes only a moment.
If AC power is available, this is the best solution. If you anticipate needing to go with batteries, the BBS Area48 produces the same light quality at a lower output than the HS.

I have one of the HS models and two of the LS - can attest to a very high quality build and exceptional performance.

Brian, do you have some samples of frames lit with the Cineo Trucolors that you could share with us?

 

[sander kamp]

Your problem is not that the room is too dim - lighting a 20' x 20' room is pretty easy - but that your windows are probably too bright. Without knowing what is outside it is hard to tell what light you need inside to balance it out. Worst case you need a couple of HMI's bounced against a wall or ceiling to balance the light outside.

How about ND gels on the windows? Takes some time and costs for the gels but lighting suddenly gets a lot easier. Or Rosco has a cool system with polarized gels and a matching polarizer filter where you can just 'dial in' how much of the outside you want to see http://www.rosco.com/FTVP/roscoview.cfm

 

[Nathan Apffel]

Thanks for all the great info!

Sander- for time sake we are actually going to let a portion of the outside go if need be, but many of the windows have large trees right outside in partial shadow. The rooms are the show pieces here so we are using a few 1k's to paint portions of the rooms, but my tests showed darker corners, etc with excess noise.

I wish we had time to ND the windows!

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

The trucolors would certainly work well. 2nd choice would be 2 6x6 or 8x8 scrim jims and 2 joker 800's. Super portable.

 

[Brian F Kobylarz]

Brian, do you have some samples of frames lit with the Cineo Trucolors that you could share with us?

Absolutely. Just went out and shot a test run, grabbed some R3D stills and uploaded to a Dropbox folder.
Just forward me an email and I'll open up a share.
If anyone knows how to do a link so anyone can access, let me know!

What is in the folder:

Parameters: EPIC-X ISO 800, RC 6:1, 5600 K, 1/24 project, 24fps, 2:1

Scene is indoors looking towards windows about 30' away. The light coming in the windows is the only existing source (zero indoor lighting).

NO GRADE APPLIED!

Index:
A003_C014... f8, Cineo turned off
A003_C015... f8, Cineo at 50% power
A003_C016... f8, Cineo at 100% power

A003_C017... f4, Cineo turned off
A003_C018... f4, Cineo at 50% power
A003_C019... f4, Cineo at 100% power

For the next 3 shots, added myself in a shadow area:
A003_C020... f4, Cineo turned off
A003_C021... f4, Cineo at 50% power
A003_C022... f4, Cineo at 100% power

Finally, a JPEG showing the camera with the source next to each other. Note there is no light coming from behind.

Note that this is using only (1) Trucolor HS fixture. Beam spread is such that there were no hot spots. Love these lights.
A lot of dark wood so the space soaks up light - selected this location so the light produced would show without bounce...

 

[Brian F Kobylarz]

To give an idea of what one fixture can do...

To give an idea of what one fixture can do...

Added full size tiff files exported from RED CINE-X Pro to the DropBox folder mentioned in Post #8.
If anyone wants to take a look, let me know...


As a teaser, I converted two of the images to JPEG, then down scaled them to a size REDUser will accept.

Again, no grading at all. Straight from the camera original recording. No change in iris - point was to illustrate the addition of one light. (A bit strange because the outdoor shifts luminance value)

First image is available light, second image adds just one TruColor HS light next to the camera. The light consuming only 500 watts. 160 degree spread and a CRI of 94 with the 5600K panels...

 

[Glen Powell]

Added full size tiff files exported from RED CINE-X Pro to the DropBox folder mentioned in Post #8.
If anyone wants to take a look, let me know...


As a teaser, I converted two of the images to JPEG, then down scaled them to a size REDUser will accept.

Again, no grading at all. Straight from the camera original recording. No change in iris - point was to illustrate the addition of one light. (A bit strange because the outdoor shifts luminance value)

First image is available light, second image adds just one TruColor HS light next to the camera. The light consuming only 500 watts. 160 degree spread and a CRI of 94 with the 5600K panels...

Pretty impressive...

 

[Mark K.]

In advance, thank you for your wisdom!

I am looking for a light source(s) that will evenly raise the noise floor of a 20x20' room 2+ stops from the ceiling to floor corners without any real hotspots. I am shooting in 5 similar rooms, each with different layouts.

We need something that is relatively mobile (travels up and down stairs without complete breakdown) and will run off wall AC (no genies are allowed on property).

We are shooting at 11mm so we see the world. Also, certain rooms have windows looking outside, so daylight balanced is necessary.

I was originally thinking a chimera right above camera, but any advice or knowledge would be much appriciated!

And to offer a suggestion Nathan, one of my go-to solutions for cheap and easy fill lighting solutions is to rig up a cheap 5-in-1 72" collapsible reflector (gaffer tape it to the wall behind the camera or clip it to two stands) and then blast a bit of light into it, redheads, blondies, a 1.2k HMI (if you need daylight fill) - voila! Insta-fill, and it's broad, smooth and even.

With the 5-in-1 reflectors you can use the silver side if you need more punch, or the white side if you want something softer (the gold side is one of my go-to beauty lighting options).

It's easy as punch to rig, and really works a treat.

These aren't the best photos of it, but should give you an idea:

The only important factor is the size of the reflector, you really do want at least 72"/6' in width to get a really even spread across the room. A 6' scrimjim or ultrabounce will do much the same thing - this is just a cheap and nasty way to get a similar result.

 

[Mark K.]

Absolutely. Just went out and shot a test run, grabbed some R3D stills and uploaded to a Dropbox folder.
Just forward me an email and I'll open up a share.
If anyone knows how to do a link so anyone can access, let me know!

What is in the folder:

Parameters: EPIC-X ISO 800, RC 6:1, 5600 K, 1/24 project, 24fps, 2:1

Scene is indoors looking towards windows about 30' away. The light coming in the windows is the only existing source (zero indoor lighting).

NO GRADE APPLIED!

Index:
A003_C014... f8, Cineo turned off
A003_C015... f8, Cineo at 50% power
A003_C016... f8, Cineo at 100% power

A003_C017... f4, Cineo turned off
A003_C018... f4, Cineo at 50% power
A003_C019... f4, Cineo at 100% power

For the next 3 shots, added myself in a shadow area:
A003_C020... f4, Cineo turned off
A003_C021... f4, Cineo at 50% power
A003_C022... f4, Cineo at 100% power

Finally, a JPEG showing the camera with the source next to each other. Note there is no light coming from behind.

Note that this is using only (1) Trucolor HS fixture. Beam spread is such that there were no hot spots. Love these lights.
A lot of dark wood so the space soaks up light - selected this location so the light produced would show without bounce...

Very impressive stuff Brian, thanks for sharing! Looks like two Trucolor HS units could actually balance against the windows in a BIG, dark room like that one. Which would be pretty remarkable for softlights drawing only 1000w!

 

[Brian F Kobylarz]

Very impressive stuff Brian, thanks for sharing! Looks like two Trucolor HS units could actually balance against the windows in a BIG, dark room like that one. Which would be pretty remarkable for softlights drawing only 1000w!

Looks like the folks at Cineo were reading your mind. Just visited their website and noticed a new offering:

http://www.cineolighting.com/index.php/pages/product_xs/140

Yeah, it's really just two HS units stacked.
IMHO, if it is only a stacking bracket assembly and redesigned yoke, it could have just been listed as an accessory rather than a "new" product.
But what do I know? Still requires two ballasts...

 

[Joel Arvidsson]

Perhaps I should start a new thread but how do the Cineo TruColor HS Luminaire Kit compared to the coolights CL-MP1200 COOL LIGHTS 1200W HMI PAR in output? They are about the same in price.
As I understand it its about half the output of the coolight. You need a Cineo, the TruColor XS™ to have equivalent of a 5K tungsten unit as the coolight does. But If you want soft light you need to bounce int or run it thru a silk and will loose light.

So for as much light as possible the coolight is the best right? and for soft light?

Then of course the quality of light goes to the trecolor.



http://www.coollights.biz/clmp1200-cool-lights-1200w-p-78.html
CL-MP1200 COOL LIGHTS 1200W HMI PAR
$3,699.00*
Light output: hard, strong beam (well defined shadows and edges) and 110,000 lumens, thus it is the equivalent of a 5K tungsten unit (but only draws 1200w during operation).

TRUCOLOR XS
http://www.cineolighting.com/index.php/pages/product_xs/140
The TruColor XS exceeds the output of a traditional 5K incandescent

 

[Joel Arvidsson]

Added full size tiff files exported from RED CINE-X Pro to the DropBox folder mentioned in Post #8.
If anyone wants to take a look, let me know...


As a teaser, I converted two of the images to JPEG, then down scaled them to a size REDUser will accept.

Again, no grading at all. Straight from the camera original recording. No change in iris - point was to illustrate the addition of one light. (A bit strange because the outdoor shifts luminance value)

First image is available light, second image adds just one TruColor HS light next to the camera. The light consuming only 500 watts. 160 degree spread and a CRI of 94 with the 5600K panels...

Did you open the iris more on the light image. Seams like the light hitting the floor blows out on the lighted version?

 

[Bob Gundu]

I think a cloud obscures the sun for a bit in that shot.

Did you open the iris more on the light image. Seams like the light hitting the floor blows out on the lighted version?

 

[Brian F Kobylarz]

I think a cloud obscures the sun for a bit in that shot.

I suspect that was the reason - had an assistant just change the ballast dimmer control and hit the record button for the last three shots. He never touched the lens.
The prior set of 3 images had exactly the same settings - just without me ducking into a shadow area.
Do not see the same change.

Joel, if send me an email address I can open up the folder on Dropbox - there you can see everything.

 

[Hal Long]

I would be very careful putting a small source by camera to raise the overall room level. As you can see in Brian's samples, it creates a still camera with flash look. Better to use much softer sources for a more subtle effect that won't squash any other lighting that might be going on. If you can't do space lights overhead maybe consider a soft light (6x6 silk frames, multiple kinos) as a base level while using a 2k or such bounced off the ceiling (focused center) to impart a natural fall off on the walls. This is similar to how Studio TV shows are shot but the soft-lights are on a grid overhead to free up camera movement.

 

[Charlie Hohenshilt]

Then of course the quality of light goes to the trecolor.

TRUCOLOR XS
http://www.cineolighting.com/index.p...product_xs/140
The TruColor XS exceeds the output of a traditional 5K incandescent

What is the spread of the Trucolor? The spread form a 1200 into 4x4 bead board is significant, it will fill a 20x20 room. Can you get a hard light form the Trucolor, say a slash across the wall? Which is more diverse?

 

[Brian F Kobylarz]

The spread on the TruColor HS is 160 degrees.

It's designed as a soft source. Does not focus like HMI's - either internally like a fresnel or with lenses like a PAR. So a slash across a wall is best done with a different fixture. No surprise there since the entire phosphor panel is the source of the light. Just like controlling a chimera or any other softlight, spill control is best accomplished with an egg crate.

Yes, you can use a 1200 HMI with a bead board to get a similar result. You will gain diversity at some cost.
Portability (the HS fits on the passenger seat in my car - would need to use a larger vehicle to carry aks such as 4x4's with the HMI idea)
Setup time (I used just one stand, no bags - ready to go in a moment or so)
Weight: The TruColor HS head weighs only 14 lbs versus over 20 lbs for my 1200 HMI's.
Efficiency: HMI's are more efficient than tungsten. Remote phosphor takes it up a notch higher (consider over 2K tungsten equivalent at only 450 watts)
Flexibility: Any of the remote phosphor fixtures (Cineo, BBS and soon NILA) feature interchangeable panels for different color temps.
Talent friendly: Operates cool.


If I needed to choose only one light for everything I do, I would have to go with an HMI. More ways to shape and control the light.
Thankfully, I'm not forced into that position. I've been mixing the remote phosphor fixtures with a number of my HMI's - everything between the LTM Mini-PAR's to a variety of the ARRI's - they work great together.