Quickie: SSD vs. CF

[Mike 'Fireman' Ross]

There are probably 28 threads about this, but I haven't been able to find any of them on a quick look. So feel free to point me to one!

1. In so far as anyone knows, is it expected that Scarlet will come with a choice of SSD or CF recording? Which will be the default?

2. What are the relative merits of SSD vs. CF in the context of shooting with Scarlet?

3. A glance at the RED store showed the maximum capacity CF card available was 16GB. I know they certify rigorously, but why no larger cards?

I'm inclined towards CF at this stage, because, first, I have a whole boatload of large, reasonably fast CF cards I shoot stills on, and second, if I'm stuck in the back of beyond somewhere and something breaks, I can scare up CF cards a lot more easily than SSD cards. May not be up to RED specs but hopefully can get something, even if only at lower res and higher compression.

 

[Patrik Kisucky]

I heard CF is a default, SSD would be an optional upgrade.

 

[paulherrin]

1. you can have whichever you like on the scarlet, the ssd may be an upgrade price. initially the cf card was default. that could change.

2. the ssd's are faster and more reliable by a factor of 10. the price per GB is the same, and the ssd's have a higher capacity. also, ssd's seem to be what red (and technology) is leaning towards as a longer term media option. to pursue.

3. there was a 64gb card at one point. also, i do remember someone (stuart, i think) commenting that they weren't dropping the CF program. but, it's hard to say at this point what to expect going forward with media.

4. don't count on using your off the shelf CF cards or SSD drives. Almost none of them can sustain the necessary speeds. additionally, RED ssd's have custom connectors, because regular ssd connectors break really easily.

i'm leaning towards the SSD's right now.

 

[David Rasberry]

Red is making a CF card adapter for the SSD module too, so you can use both. If you want to shoot at the highest quality/lowest compression ratios, only Red certified media will work. Should be able to shoot at least 24fps 12:1 compression with off the shelf top of the line fast CF cards made specifically for digital media acquisition, but most will not sustain the data rates.
Even the SSD's Red is shipping will currently only do 18fps on Epic at full 5k resolution at the lowest compression/highest quality16 bit capture settings. Data rates are at minimum around 8 times what is typical for a video camera. These things sling a lot of bytes.

Consider a single Scarlet frame at 3072x1620x12 bits per pixel is nearly 7.5 Mega Bytes uncompressed, the typical midrange compression for HD finish is around 7:1, so you are looking at for most purposes a sustained 26 mega bytes per second at 24fps. While many cards are specified to write faster than this, not many can sustain continuous writes to full capacity without glitches. Potentially Scarlet at full 3k resolution 16 bit capture, 5:1 compression, 120fps could generate 239 megabytes per second if it can process that fast.

 

[Mike 'Fireman' Ross]

Red is making a CF card adapter for the SSD module too, so you can use both. If you want to shoot at the highest quality/lowest compression ratios, only Red certified media will work. Should be able to shoot at least 24fps 12:1 compression with off the shelf top of the line fast CF cards made specifically for digital media acquisition, but most will not sustain the data rates.
Even the SSD's Red is shipping will currently only do 18fps at full 5k resolution at the lowest compression/highest quality setting. Data rates are at minimum around 8 times what is typical for a video camera.

So for avoidance of doubt, you can have an SSD module on the camera, take out the SSD card, slap in the RED CF adapter, and hey presto insert a CF card and it works? Subject to the clearly understood caveats concerning data rates.

That could be VERY valuable to me if a project gets overtaken by events and I end up having to shoot a lot longer than planned before getting 'back to civilisation'. I'm inclined to go SSD in that case, and get the adapter so can use CF as a fallback position.

(reason I'm asking now is that, as was suggested by a RED Team guy in another thread, I want to order RED STATION products & storage now, in advance of cameras shipping, in case of limited availability later this year when we have a flood of cameras coming down the delivery pipline!)

Thanks!

Mike

 

[Benoît-Joan Clariana-Roig]

Potentially Scarlet at full 3k resolution 16 bit capture, 5:1 compression, 120fps could generate 239 megabytes per second if it can process that fast.

*faints*

 

[Joel Arvidsson]

Potentially Scarlet at full 3k resolution 16 bit capture, 5:1 compression, 120fps could generate 239 megabytes per second if it can process that fast.

Have there been any talking on 16bit Scarlet? I thought it was 12bit:w00t:

 

[paulherrin]

i think it is 12

 

[Jim Retar]

I think what we really need it a list of the comprimises we will make by choosing CF over SSD.

namely... framerates, REDcode and HDRx™ ability.

I have been asking for this since the SSD announcement and never get an answer.

 

[Michael Dearworth]

I think what we really need it a list of the comprimises we will make by choosing CF over SSD.

namely... framerates, REDcode and HDRx™™ ability.

I have been asking for this since the SSD announcement and never get an answer.

I agree. Apart from the fact that SSDs have a higher storage capacity, I would like to know the advantages of it over CF.

 

[Michael J. Underwood]

As someone who just freed himself from P2 purgatory, I am really hesitant to commit to another proprietary media format. I understand the advantages of SSD - but CF is a huge advantage on the Scarlet, IMHO. SSD with a CF adapter? Bring that on!

 

[Michael Dearworth]

CF is a huge advantage on the Scarlet, IMHO.

How so?

 

[Michael J. Underwood]

How so?

Well, I have a grip of high speed CFs, so I can shoot out of the box without worrying about the SSD or the reader being supported by Mac OS (or more likely, the next OS). I feel like waiting a year will clear up a lot of questions about media - being able to keep my workflow consistent in the meantime is the main advantage.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Well, I have a grip of high speed CFs, so I can shoot out of the box without worrying about the SSD or the reader being supported by Mac OS (or more likely, the next OS). I feel like waiting a year will clear up a lot of questions about media - being able to keep my workflow consistent in the meantime is the main advantage.

I sincerely doubt you'll have any compatibility problems with SSD (any more than you'd have with CF - which are non-existent). And SSD can handle higher data rates than CF. Both media will have their strengths.

 

[Anthony Cote]

to me it's all about recording at 120 fps + at a decent REDCODE compression. Some posts from the RED team have indicated that the 16gb CF cards would not be suitable for recording anything but 24 fps (and probably higher, maybe to 60, but this is just me guessing) and maybe not even HDRx.

The 64 gb CF card (and any others besides the 16gb ones) are seemingly not going to be made anymore. This thread is where I found out that info:http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=54466

so it seems like to use all the features on the Scarlet one must go the SSD route. It is not THAT much more money. Here is my breakdown with how much memory I plan on buying:

CF
CF module: included with Scarlet fixed package, or $500 alone
REDSTATION CF reader: $250
2x RED CF 16gb 4pack (total 128gb): $2000
total: $2250 on top of the Scarlet Fixed package

SSD
SSD Module: price difference of $1300 with Fixed package, or $1800 alone
2x RED SSD 64gb (total 128gb): $1900
REDSTATION SSD reader: $250
total: $3450 on top of the Scarlet Fixed package

so a $1200 difference, which can make or break some people's decision, but I think that extra money will be worth the future-proof of SSDs and the ability to shoot at lower REDCODEs, alot of HDRx, and 120+ fps

of course there's nothing official so all this could be wrong

 

[Terry VerHaar]

to me it's all about recording at 120 fps + at a decent REDCODE compression. Some posts from the RED team have indicated that the 16gb CF cards would not be suitable for recording anything but 24 fps (and probably higher, maybe to 60, but this is just me guessing) and maybe not even HDRx™™.


...

Probably worth noting that much of what you are referring to here is about Epic. Keep in mind that Scarlet, at 3K, has much less of a throughput demand in general as Epic. Not saying you can do everything you want with CF, but the limitations will we less on Scarlet than they would be on Epic.

 

[Anthony Cote]

Probably worth noting that much of what you are referring to here is about Epic. Keep in mind that Scarlet, at 3K, has much less of a throughput demand in general as Epic. Not saying you can do everything you want with CF, but the limitations will we less on Scarlet than they would be on Epic.

I know that CF would be very limited on EPIC, most of what I was referring to was into on the Scarlet. Of course if my info is wrong and if one can do HDRx and 120+ fps at 3K at a lower compression, I would be all for CF! Sorry if my info was wrong, I just remember seeing a post by Jim or Jarred mentioning that the CFs might not be able to do 120fps and some lower compression REDCODES. Plus HDRx is doulbe the data per clip, which would quickly fill up a 16gb CF card.

 

[paulherrin]

let's stop whining about CF cards. we're going to find out soon enough what's available.

 

[David Rasberry]

i think it is 12

Epic is able to do both 12 bit and 16 bit. I hope they include a similar option for Scarlet. The question nobody but Red knows the answer too is what the maximum data throughput for Scarlet will be. It got bumped from an original limit of Redcode 42 (42MB/sec), equal to a Red One, to Redcode 100.
That was before HDRx™™, so now it is anyone's guess what the maximum data rate can be. Whatever it is, you will be able to trade off compression ratios, frame sizes and maybe bit depth, against frame rates.
The Scarlet Ted was showing at CES had a 2:1 highest quality compression ratio on its menu. But Ted was careful to say that wasn't final. Something in the 2-3:1 range can be mathematically lossless, meaning no frame data is lost compared to uncompressed. It has been mentioned that the maximum compression ratio is around 12:1.
But we can expect at least a 100MB/sec (that's mega Bytes) as a maximum for Scarlet and to date there are no CF cards, including Red's proprietary ones, that will sustain continuous writes at that kind of data rate. From Deanan's reports, you can reasonably expect an off the shelf card to sustain maybe half of what it specs say at best.
The reported experience of Red One users so far is that off the shelf CF cards will mostly sustain up to Redcode 28, a few will do RC36, but that is not consistent even with the same make and model of card. The larger the card the worse the performance. That is why Red dropped their planned 64GB CF for now in favor of SSD, which is also cheaper byte for byte compared to CF.
There is a separate issue with common CF cards regarding the type of memory controllers they use. Some are not compatible with Red's software at all and won't work in the camera.
Red is also making a CF caddy for their SSD module, so one module can do double duty. One can also start with CF and upgrade later. Its a module.
A full resolution uncompressed Scarlet frame is around 7.5 MB at 12 bits and around 10 MB at 16 bits if that becomes an option. Compression ratios from 2:1 to around 12:1. Frame rates up to at least 120 fps continuous. Perhaps a 100MB/sec ceiling, maybe more.
Get out your calculators and see what will work for CF.

 

[Steve Wake]

Important info regarding run times. The next to last line should be divided by 8 to approximate run time for a 16GB CF on Scarlet.

Off Hollywood just sold a pack of 4 16GB RED CF's on eBay for $530. Functional and cosmetically excellent, but I'm sure extremely well used.

Since I need long run times and have a limited budget I'd consider a Red Drive if the adapter to a Scarlet is not too much. Right now I fear the adapter would be a Pro I/O module (and I'm not even sure that has the proper port), which would make me favor SSD.

The 22 page long thread I lifted this from also has some interesting discussions about media.

This is NOT official (yet) but should give you a good idea what's happening with REDCODE and SSDs.

Double the times for a 256GB card and halve the times for a 64BG card (pretty obvious I guess)...

Jim