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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Quantel Pablo, Scratch or just wait until Nab?

But the fact is that unless you are sitting in the chair every day, you just don't have that level of understanding - and if you're working for a manufacturer, you're not sitting in the chair with clients every day. ... And whether you think about it this way or not, you and Paul can be pretty intimidating as well. ... chances are pretty good that the demo artist is not at the level that you are.

I've been in the Demo seat a while ago and because i did not know what the client want that demo was not the most brilliant ever. ... In relation of that demo day, I cannot tell if the guy that was driving the Nucoda box was not an expert or it was not a demo artist at all: my point it is to explain that may be the box it is fantastic and powerful but that demo did not deliver the message to my boss therefore a chance to sell a platform vanish for them. True for any platform.

Speaking as someone who has done demos for a long time, and also been an in-the-chair artist (though not a colorist)...

The Art of Demos by Lucas Tzu...

1) Humility. A demo jock's job is never to prove how much they know and how good they are. I've seen a lot of frustrated artists in demo roles. They are awful at it, because they are trying to prove the whole time what wonderful artists they are.

2) Knowledge. But not obsessively proving how much you know does not make up for ignorance. Going into a demo at a facility like Fotokem and showing a product to people like Walter and Paul Chapman and Bill Schultz requires extensive holistic knowledge of the post-production process.

3) Honesty. Admit clearly and openly what you do not know. If you don't know the answer, don't fake it. Trying to bullsh*t technical knowledge with a Chief Engineer or Senior Colorist at any facility will only end poorly. Similarly, don't lie about what your product does and does not do. What's worse - them finding out during the demo, or finding out after they purchase?

4) Process. The purpose of a demo is not to show all the wonderful things your product can do. It is to show enough of the product and convince enough people of its usefulness that the facility brings the product in for an in-depth evaluation. It's only during the eval process that the really in-depth button tweaking happens.

5) Friendliness. You've got to be a social and gregarious person to start with. In 90% of the demos I do, and the really good demos I see of other products, about 20% of the demo is actual button pushing on the product. The other 80% is talking and getting people to tell you what they need and why.

6) Listen. As you go through the basics of a product, people in the room will always give away what their hot buttons are. They will always ask questions about what they really want to hear about. But you have to be listening and able to pick up on those cues and steer things that direction. Otherwise, you'll charge blindly ahead and show things nobody really cares about and miss the key thing they do care about.

7) Confidence. You're not an in-the-chair Colorist. You're not a Chief Engineer. You don't work at a major facility doing big titles. So what? They don't expect you to be. And at the same time, they are not demo artists and they do not know the product and the workflow as well as you do. Be confident about what you know and what you do. In sales, the meek shall inherit nothing.

8) Acceptance. Your product is not right for everyone. Realize that, and gracefully admit when it doesn't seem like your product is the right fit. Facilities really appreciate that, and they will certainly remember what your product *does* do, and if they need it in the future, they'll be much more likely to call back if people aren't trying to ram stuff down their throat in the initial approach.

9) Nakedness. (no no... not that kind of demo... just kidding...)

Lucas
 
9) Nakedness. (no no... not that kind of demo... just kidding...)

Lucas

Not my kind... But I appreciate the effort....

For the other points you are spot on.... and a lot of those apply even when you are in the chair doing your colorist job...

w.
 
Hi Mike (Walter, and the rest of you...)

I think your figures are a tad off there Mike.

I'm setting up a large new DI operation in Chennai, India, for a client (and will be acting as their lead colourist when set-up and until I've trained their own team well) and the kit costs are no where near as high as you quote.

And this is for a multi-station Quantel GenePool, with 2x Pablo(Neo), iQ, Max and large (very) GenePoool central storage, with two projection based grading rooms, etc...

We will be doing projects from all number sources, including film, D-21 and RED, just to name a few.

The beauty of this approach to me is that we will have major DI and post-production capability (editing, conform, paint, graphics, grading, vfx, text, end rollers, deliverables, etc.) with minimal kit and minimal operators.

There will be a network set-up to a 'workstation based' vfx environment, but that will be 'cheap' PC workstations with Combustion, and the like. When doing 'backroom' vfx, I don't want to tie-up the main online finishing suite.

Anyway, just my thoughts to add to the mix...

Oh, and I probably should say I helped set-up FotoKem DI all those years back, as Walter described, as a small-start operation. Actually, Walter worked for me then, and FotoKem 'nicked him'!

:biggrin:

Lots of background info on this, and many other DI operations I've been involved with, on the website - www.lightillusion.com


Steve
 
Actually, Walter worked for me then, and FotoKem 'nicked him'!
:biggrin:
Steve

True.

I agree on the vfx site: if the main room it is a $$$$ dollar room and you do not want to sop that for hours to do rotoscoping: better have a smaller bay thet it is only $ expensive and go with smaller software...

w.
 
I'm setting up a large new DI operation in Chennai, India, for a client (and will be acting as their lead colourist when set-up and until I've trained their own team well) and the kit costs are no where near as high as you quote ...

Steve,

As anybody who works on the manufacturer side knows, there are pricelists, discount sheets... and then there are prices for India. ; )

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA
 
As anybody who works on the manufacturer side knows, there are pricelists, discount sheets... and then there are prices for India. ; )

This is something that really bothers me about this industry - the fact that very few companies have publicly listed prices. Maybe I should register a website in a foreign country and speak in an accent to get a lower quote...
 
This is something that really bothers me about this industry - the fact that very few companies have publicly listed prices. Maybe I should register a website in a foreign country and speak in an accent to get a lower quote...

The 'figures' I quoted for the set-up I'm building with my Indian client are no different than Quantel use any where else in the world. And I should know as I've been involved in 'Quantel' based projects all over the globe - Japan, USA, South Africa, China, Asia, Canada, Europe, etc...

What other manufacturers do I can't verify.

As for book price, and the final negotiated price... I'm sure that will depend on the amount of kit you are buying.

And Lucas, I'm somewhat ashamed of you - being that you worked for Quantel and should know their pricing strategy!

And I'd probably have to say that many manufacturers actually 'up' their price for India, not reduce it.
 
The 'figures' I quoted for the set-up I'm building with my Indian client are no different than Quantel use any where else in the world. And I should know as I've been involved in 'Quantel' based projects all over the globe - Japan, USA, South Africa, China, Asia, Canada, Europe, etc...

What other manufacturers do I can't verify.

As for book price, and the final negotiated price... I'm sure that will depend on the amount of kit you are buying.

And Lucas, I'm somewhat ashamed of you - being that you worked for Quantel and should know their pricing strategy!

And I'd probably have to say that many manufacturers actually 'up' their price for India, not reduce it.

It was some light humor, Steve. Easy there, mate. : )

Lucas
 
This is something that really bothers me about this industry - the fact that very few companies have publicly listed prices. Maybe I should register a website in a foreign country and speak in an accent to get a lower quote...

Edgar,

This is not an attempt at obfuscation or dishonesty. I can't speak for anyone else, so let me explain it from the ASSIMILATE standpoint.

We have software list prices. They're fairly well known. SCRATCH-CINE is US$17.5K. Our other bundles go up from there. Our international prices are pegged to the US Dollar, so it's pretty straightforward and we don't have a very complicated product line.

We ship internationally, and usually with hardware. First, there are serious import taxes, duties, "facilitation fees," customs brokers fees, shipping fees, etc. for any electronics hardware going from the US to anywhere else in the world. Those fees are variable and raise the price of a bundle anywhere from 1% to 20% depending on the country. And they fluctuate constantly.

We work with resellers in different countries. Each reseller must sell in their own native currency and deal with the various levies and fees internally in that country - whatever their version of US Sales Tax is.

Take the real-world example of selling in Australia.

A few months ago, the Australian Dollar lost almost 40 percent of its value against the Greenback. Similar thing happened with the Korean Won. Remember, our prices are tied to the Dollar. In order to make any money, distributors of products tied to the dollar had no choice but to dramatically increase their AU$ list prices.

Adding to the fun, it is a fairly regular policy in many countries to sell at a fairly high percentage above US list price. ASSIMILATE strictly forbids this with our partners, but I know of many companies in the industry that sell in different markets at prices way above their base currency list price, because that is what their international partners believe the market will bear.

Also consider that people who make customized hardware very regularly have to deal with things like...

1) A very specialized part in the system was made by only two manufacturers worldwide. One of them just folded, and the price of that part went up by 300%.
2) Tax laws have changed in the country of origin for specific parts and they are either unavailable or have gone up in price exorbitantly.

etc, etc...

The COGS for any hardware item fluctuates on a daily basis for any low-volume manufacturer, and nailing a static list price for any length of time is difficult.

So the combination of international product origination and shipping fees, partner considerations, currency fluctuations, and cultural differences make it difficult to publish list prices for a low-volume, highly customized producct without getting into a lot of trouble with different people.

At the end of the day, with any non-commodity product, it comes down to a sales relationship, a quote, and a negotiation. If you want to buy something like a DI system, sales reps will only be too happy to get you quotes.

Lucas
 
Hi Lucas.

I was not directing my comments at Assimilate, as I know you have list prices on Silverado's website, but at the high-end post industry as a whole. Your comments about being dollar or euro based are certainly relevant, but it is still a slippery slope with software, upgrades and long term support pricing. It seems to me that it should not be a sensitive subject.

I am not a communist, so I understand the free market, economies of scale and companies must make a profit, but I can't help feeling like I'm visiting a used car dealership. You step on the lot, and you are sized up by a slick salesman to get top dollar. I am not comparing used cars but the process. Red, on the other hand, embraces its cost structure and it has paid back in spades.

We will be in a position (infrastructure) to demo Scratch, Speedgrade and a few others in the next few months. So, I look forward to putting your software through the paces.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my post.

Edgar
 
Hey Edgar,

I agree that it is a slippery slope - and I didn't take your comments personally. : )

It's a fine line between respecting your partners, dealing with currency fluctuations, rapidly changing COGS... and snake-oil tactics.

I have worked for companies before where I really did not respect the pricing structure, and where you have been correct. The price-list was mainly not published because the company *wanted* to keep pricing mysterious. The price was also so ridiculously high that I suspect they didn't want the public backlash.

And yes, high-end post is very much a slick sales game. Ask around and find out who people like. Sales in the high-end manufacturer space in post is a fairly small circle of people. Most of us know each other, and have in many cases worked with each other in other jobs. Most of the sales people I know at the other post manufacturers are very conscientious, and very good at what they do. They want to make money, but only if it's a good fit and everyone walks away happy. There's always the people that are in it purely for the money and don't really care who they screw in the process. Those people don't last long. The community is too small, and word travels fast.

A word of advice to eliminate as much snake-oil as possible. Start at the top and work down. Many manufacturers work with resellers and partners, and in some cases, multiple partners in the same territory. If you go to the manufacturer first, they will point you to the best partners in your area and help you through the process. Start with the VP Sales or Director Sales for your territory. Find out who they are and approach them directly, and let them steer you to the correct rep and partner. That will help you minimize the "used-carism."

Best,

Lucas
 
I've was very annoyed by the mystery surrounding Assimilate's pricing structure at first. To the point where I leaned towards Speedgrade - which just has list pricing on the Iridas website. But I couldn't make friends with the Speedgrade interface so I had an email conversation with Lucas explaining my needs. After a brief exchange of information he forwarded me to Nachon (VP of sales). I had a great intercontinental phone conversation with Nacho and he introduced me to the Dutch reseller and systems integrator for Assimilate (Systems4u).

Thus far Systems4u have been excellent. When I had a question about a certain graphics card for Scratch they'd quickly make a phonecall to the Scratch software designer for first-hand information. Just to illustrate the service level generally involved at this level. My system should arrive any day now :-)

Assimilate is not Adobe or Apple. They work in a niche and really want to adapt their offerings to your needs. It's not one-size-fits all.

And in all honesty, if you're asked "how much do you charge to produce a commercial?", you'd respond with "well, what exactly do you need?".
 
Hi guys,
a quick question.

I need to:
- Do serious compositing and grading (also stereoscopic).
- Work with R3D material.
- Be fast, full quality, 4k.

Just jumping in here - why the narrow choice of possible solutions? From your requirements above our Film Master product would fit the bill very nicely.

Will you be at NAB - we will be there demoing our latest version of software, with full Red support, Stereo, Compositing, not to mention Avid integration and Open EXR support - oh and also of course unrivalled colour correction capabilities.

During the course of the show we will have a 1 hour guest appearance each day by Ted (from Red) - why not come by for one of his sessions for an introduction to what we can do?

Regards

Nigel
 
Hi Nigel,
and thanks to all of you.

We have finally choose the "British" way...

I'm currently waiting the delivery of a brand new Quantel Pablo 4K, 5MME, Neo Panel.

In the meantime, I'm working with our architect in order to build a decent DI room...

Any suggestions?

Ciao,
Corrado.
 
Just need to add that I've received a great support and attention in this period from Nacho (Assimilate) and Torrey Loomis (Silverado).
Ok, I was in the right position (in order to get a special "care"), but, anyway, they was great.

Many and special thanks also to Walter Volpatto :)
 
congrats corrado... you are going to love the Pablo... especially with NEO panel, which takes it from the British way, to the how it should be way. imho :)
 
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