Pull Down Question

[dori_bashan]

Hi

I'm not very familiar with the pull down process.

I got footage that were shot 4k 2:1, and transcoded into 720p/23.976.

i need to digital cut it to an HDCAM tape at 59.94fps

After the pull down that Symphony Nitris made, when i go over the footage, i see that because of the fileds duplication, when there is a cut in the editing, the last frame of the shot and the first frame of the new shot has been transfomed into one frame with some kind of "dissolve" between them.

do i have any way of avoiding it?

Thanks

 

[MichaelP]

When outputting to a 59.94 format from 23.976, there is a 2:3 pulldown applied. In 720p/59.94 - it s 2 frames, then 3 frames, then 2, etc. In 59.94i (interlace) it is two fields, then 3 fields, then 2 fields. This creates the A, B, C, D frames. In interlace world, the B/C frame is comprised of 1 field of two different source frames - when viewing 59.95p in interlace you will say the same thing. That is the nature of pulldown.

Michael

 

[dori_bashan]

Is there any other pulldown process (not 2:3) that i can apply on the footage in order to avoid it?

 

[M Forrest]

FluidMotion:sarcasm:

 

[BradWright]

Is there any other pulldown process (not 2:3) that i can apply on the footage in order to avoid it?

Is your HDCAM footage interlaced? If the footage is progressive, it may make more sense to remove any pulldown from the HDCAM footage then get it into a progressive timeline. Pull-down is really not something you want to try to edit around in. When you cut on a frame that has pull down, you can windup with visual jumps. Editing progressive footage is a lot better way to go.

 

[MichaelP]

The issue is the output MASTER is a 59.94 master - regardless of progressive or interlace, frames are added to the output so that 1 minute's worth of 23.976 frames is still 1 minute in a 59.94fps world. It is the way it works.

Michael

 

[Brandon Kraemer]

1. Why can't you digital cut it to HDCAM at 23.976? You can change the frequency on that deck.

2. Can you edit at 23.98 and then layoff to the deck at 59.94, allowing the VTR to add the pulldown on the fly? Kona 3 will do this sort of thing. I believe the Sony HDCAM VTR also has dedicated 3:2 I/O to allow for mismatched workflow.

3. If you add pulldown before you edit, your edits will not appear to be splitting shots on interlaced fields, but if you add pulldown after the fact they will when the cadence falls on an edit in that way. However if you add pulldown first, you risk changing the cadence as you edit, which can cause other problems later on. In most workflows, you go out of your way to remove pull down before you work, then add it back at the end.

In the end it really matters how it looks when it plays back in real time, on an interlaced system.

 

[dori_bashan]

the footage is 720p/23.976.

need to digital cut to SD and not HD.

if i will digital cut it to HDCAM 23.976 it will work great, but i must finish in SD.

when SONY HDCAM VTR is set to 23.976, there is no SD output using the deck down convert, so i can't let the VTR for the down conversion.

the plan was to digital cut an HDCAM tape 59.94 and then to down convert it by using a dub from HD to SD.

so, as i understand, my only option for finishing is SD is to use a software pull down

am i wrong? am i missing something?

 

[Brandon Kraemer]

That must be a hardware option because I am pretty sure I have down converted from that deck to SD when in 23.976 mode. There is an option card for the dedicated 3:2 IO as well. I guess if neither of these hardware options are available for you on the deck, and you can't send the Master out of house for a SD downconversion, then you need to find the solution within the Avid and master at 59.94.

I know on the Avid DS you can simply put your whole edit in a container and apply add pulldown to that container, not having worked on a Symphony since 2001, I don't know what the best tool is for your situation. I'm not sure if what you think your seeing is really a problem, if you watch it IN MOTION, on an interlaced monitor, are you seeing problems? Interlaced pulldown frames look crappy when parked on a frame and displaying both fields by their very nature.

 

[dori_bashan]

I'm using SONY HDW-2000 for digital cut.

as i know, it''s one of sony high-end vtr's.

iv'e check the HDCAM user manul for HDW-2000, HDW-M2000, and HDW-M2000P and here is the list of the options board for it:

HKDW 101 Control Panel
HKDW 102 SDTI Interface Board
BKMW 102 Remote Control Unit
BKMW 103 Control Unit Expension Kit
RCC-5G 9 Pin Remote Control Cable
BVR 50/50P Video Remote Control Unit
HKDV 900 Video Remote Control Unit
RMM 131 Rack Mount Adaptor
BCTHD12CL Cleaning Cassete Tape
AC Power Cord

if anyone know about vtr model that does the pull down when in 23.976 mode, please let me know

 

[Brandon Kraemer]

I usually work with the HDW-F500. Some specific specs....

"The switchable frame rate allows recordings to be made at 23.98, 24, 25, 29.97and 30 frames per second progressive, and 50, 59.94 or 60 fields per second interlace. Audio capabilities include (4) 20-bit channels, capable of handling Dolby "E" encoded audio tracks.

HD SDI (with 4 channels of embedded audio) and AES/EBU audio interfaces are standard. Options are available for integrated downconversion to 525 video (HKDV-501A) and 3:2 pulldown to1080i (HKDV-507D) for handling 23.98 or 24P material in exisiting systems. RS 422 control interface is standard, and 50-pin control interface is optional (BKDW-509).

Optional 3:2 pulldown board Optional 3:2 pulldown board: Allows viewing of 24P recording at the conventional 60 Hz rate. When used in combination with the optional HKDV-501A down-converter board, 24P material can be viewed on standard NTSC monitors"

 

[dori_bashan]

Thank you.

i see that this model is discountinued. do you know what is new model that suppose to replace it?

 

[Brandon Kraemer]

Sorry I do not, but they are rentable in many med to large markets and obtainable refurbished. Best of luck to you wether you find your solution via software or hardware.

 

[dori_bashan]

Thnak you


if anyone know the new model let me know

on sony pro website i see only the 2000 (recorders) and the 2100 (Players) seriess.