Proxie Editing & ONLINE

[Mark Toia]

This could be the most important email for a lot of you struggling with POST.
We have just finished months of major testing towards grading of RED footage, editing of RED footage and finished POST & Mastering to SRHD.

Over the last 8 months of shooting many big budget RED jobs and posting many different ways we have come to a point that for TV AD LAND we have been wasting lots of time and money in POST rendering files that quite honestly don't need to be rendered.

Having to RENDER everything out to TAPE or to a readable format for the AVID guys was becoming to much of a chore. Rendering all the files out to either DPX , tiff or even PRO RES was taking for ever as well. Especially if you've shot about 6 hours of footage.
We have tested and tested and re-tested to find the quickest way to edit, online, grade and to master RED out to HD / 2k / sd etc.

In short it goes like this.

Set REC709 in your RED CAMERA Quick time proxy settings.
Once shot place your 1k or 2k REC709 Proxy Quicktimes directly into the FCP time line. FCP should auto set the sequence time line to PRO RES 10bit (hq) at what ever file dimension (2k 0r 1k) you throw into it. Simple.

Set time line to unlimited RT and set your playback to LOW.
Now edit and grade away happily in FCP. No rendering needed at this stage.
For example I have just dropped 4hours 22mins of RED 2k proxie quicktimes into my Final cut time line, It took less than 5 seconds to load it all in and play and edit.
I usually do this on set in my laptop for the clients.

Simple.

Now If you have incorrectly exposed your shot on the day, Just go back to RED ALERT adjust your brightness, exposure or contrast of that shot to give your self more information. Then Generate new quicktime proxies via RED ALERT. (this will take less than 2 seconds to do).These will replace themselves automatically in your FCP time line.

Simple

Ok your edit is done, your client loves it. You now set your RT to safe and your playback to HIGH. You will see a RED RENDER line appear above your edit. You press RENDER. (It will RENDER the time line in PRO RES (HQ) 30sec at 2k is around 1 minute to RENDER out using a standard 8 core MAC.
Your TV AD, music Video etc etc is Done finished in HD or HD and ready to go to tape, TV Stations, DVD...etc.

Easy.

We do this daily without a single hiccup on very large projects.

see link: http://www.zoomfilmtv.com.au/ftp/Rec709_vs_PDlog/

As you can see with this grade test using just the QT proxies up against the RENDER intensive DPX method. The difference between the DPX process and the QT proxie use is not going to give you hardly anymore to play with.
I recommend using either the DPX or direct R3d grading if you have completely stuffed up exposure on the day of shooting it.

Happy Shooting.:gun:

 

[Craig Parkes]

Hey, thanks for posting this, I think it is a really worthwhile comparison.

The pursuit for perfection in image I think often gets in the way of the pursuit for the perfect solution for achieving an end - by posting this comparison you are pretty clearly saying that if you have shot what you want to shoot, and it's close enough to what you want to output in terms of colour/fidelity captured on the day - you can got the QT proxy route successfully for broadcast.

This is something that I think is important to say - but what about if you want to aggressively treat your shots in post - obviously the quicktime proxy route doesn't work so well there, but at what point is such treatment too aggressive/do the proxies no longer hold up.

That's always going to be a subjective thing - irrespective of format.

I have seen DV shot on ENG cameras ingest at Prores, colour graded for how it was shot in Final Cut Pro, and then spit back out and look surprisingly good as well, because people knew what was going to be happening in post when they shot the DV.

We are all in a place where technology is giving everyone incredibly affordable, workable latitude to achieve amazing quality imaging.

For a lot of people, the demand for 'flawless' imaging will still be there, maybe as a justification for the prices they charge or the equipment they use, or maybe because that's what is really needed. But at the moment with the disparity of viewing situation and environment in the 'broadcast' arena, I think your approach (keep it simple) really does make a lot of sense and shouldn't be overlooked.

 

[Mark Toia]

Hi Caliban,

Next time I'll have a chance, I'll show you what a worked hard QUICKTIME proxie looks like to a WORKED HARD DPX.

You will be very surprised.
I do lots of heavy effects work with these proxies, Ive KEYED hair just using the Proxie Quicktimes as well. We push hard in all directions.
Grading heavy is easy, And if I need more I just output a LOG QUICKTIME and smash into that.
Very simple stuff. A lot easier than what people think.

http://www.zoomfilmtv.com.au/ftp/redslowmo/

This is a key test using just the proxie Quicktime the camera generates in FCP. Using a very shitty KEY tool.
Imagine the key if you used a proper program to do it.
You can't key this good using DV, Even film is hard to do this good. Ive tried for 15years to achieve keys like this off 35mm.

These Quick time Proxies are a lot stronger and hold more detail than what people think. To be honest more than what I ever thought.
REC 709 Quick times are the go,
RED SPACE you cant seem to do much with them, They are pushed into a grade already and it's hard to get rid of it unless you go back to red alert for every shot... naaaaaa

Thanks for your feeback, very good.

 

[Lewis-M Soucy]

Big T you rock!

That's a great workflow tip I always believed in for non theatrical stuff, like TV and else... I'm curious to see what the 2K proxies could look like on film...

Thanks for sharing

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Big T, isn't that what you were doing all along though? I didn't realize you were doing all of that rendering. I got the impression you were a proxy guy way back when, especially when you posted that Red Alert workflow thread.

I showed people just how easy the proxy workflow can be today and they were quite surprised. Many said they didn't realize it could be that easy. I also made sure to point out that it can also be tough depending on the complexity of your edit, effects, mixed formats, etc. But at a basic level, it's very straightforward.

 

[Mark Toia]

Big T, isn't that what you were doing all along though? I didn't realize you were doing all of that rendering. I got the impression you were a proxy guy way back when, especially when you posted that Red Alert workflow thread.

I showed people just how easy the proxy workflow can be today and they were quite surprised. Many said they didn't realize it could be that easy. I also made sure to point out that it can also be tough depending on the complexity of your edit, effects, mixed formats, etc. But at a basic level, it's very straightforward.

oooooooh I am the Proxie guy. I just go back to the old fashioned POST HOUSE RENDER out the DPX way to see if they are getting better results now and then. I have to keep my mind and eyes open in case something changes on that front. So far nothing has changed on that front.

I'm only showing a PROXIE vs DPX RENDER grade side by side for people that just don't no any better and think that DPX rendering is the go.
If you noticed the difference between the REC 709 graded Proxie and a Rendered DPX graded in a $250,000 grading box, There was hardly to no difference at all. Thats why Proxie editing and grading works well. (super fast)
I've tried all ways, backward, upside down, you name it, Ive done it.
The good old PROXIE in fcp, edit cut output, is the only way to fly.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

What about complex sequences with speed changes, importing other formats, multilayered effects, etc?

Have you found the proxies to work okay in those situations?

 

[Mark Toia]

What about complex sequences with speed changes, importing other formats, multilayered effects, etc?

Have you found the proxies to work okay in those situations?

I just render that little bit out in the time line, Takes seconds on a rammed up 8 core machine...
Still saves rendering out 4 hours of rushes to.

 

[Brandon Fraley]

Big T, what about the QT gamma issue? Any thoughts on that?

 

[Mark Toia]

Big T, what about the QT gamma issue? Any thoughts on that?

Honestly, It's been a little bit painful.
I take my finished AD's say in to a colourist's suite put it up and it looks perfect, Take it into INFERNO, it looks to crushed, I take it into a tape suite, looks good, Run it into a standard PLAZMA or LCD TV , looks perfect..
Seems where ever I play it, it looks different.
I gauge all I do VIA the Colourists Suite. There screens should be perfect.

You have to setup your working monitor as good as you can to TV tolerances. What I did was drag my setup into TELECINE, eye matched it and left it. Seems to work perfect.

I run my picutures through a PANASONIC HD monitor also a MARSHALL HD monitor, 30 inche APPLE monitors (DELL ARE CRAP for Gamma checks)
All work well..
It's a tough one. But over all, I don't really have gamma issues anymore.

It's a tough one, but if you going to grade off a least a APPLE monitor, set the screen GAMMA to 2.2 not 1.8 in your screen preferences.

For us, this is works the best and looks perfect were ever I play it.

 

[Sam Roberts]

Set REC709 in your RED CAMERA Quick time proxy settings.

Thanks so much for the informative post. Could you explain a little bit more about the reasons for the step quoted above?

 

[HD Hildebrand]

Good questions Sam. Big T, is there also a way to global/batch change many shots to REC709?

 

[Sam Roberts]

Can anyone clarify this?

 

[zip]

Big T could you tell me what playback hardware you're using? We use the same process you do but get slightly stuttery playback and we're figuring it is because we are using the stock GeForce 8800GT that came with our Mac Pro (which has dual quad core 3.2ghz procs and 16 gigs of RAM...it's brand spanking new). Also our HD bandwidth is fine.

We're looking at getting a Kona card now to have smooth playback of 1080p ProRess422HQ footage.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

I have an ATI 3870 and running Kona 3 hardware. 16GB RAM, OS 10.5

 

[Mike Prevette]

The proxies have improved so much since the first incarnation. I totally agree that this is a great workflow for 90% of all the commercial work I come across. Load up Compressor with a 'proxie > whatever' preset then render and cut away, and revisit individual clips for any major changes.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Mike, this is a different workflow than the one being described by Big T. No Compressor step involved with the method he is talking about. Although, the one you describe is equally valid.

 

[Mike Prevette]

Mike, this is a different workflow than the one being described by Big T. No Compressor step involved with the method he is talking about. Although, the one you describe is equally valid.

Yep I got that, I threw in the compressor thing because that's what has been working best for me. It allows my clients to separate the RAW footage from the Editorial media to keep things easy to move around and extra safe from data loss.

 

[Scott Mason]

Can anyone clarify this?

Aloha gang-
,
You can set the camera to REC709 and I imagine your proxies reflect this. But when you regenerate proxies you can not change the color space or the lut (well you can but it won't reflect in the proxies you regenerate) It will, however, reflect in a quicktime you render using the rsx file in any of the many ways (My favorite is Clip Finder)

I have not idea what color space or lut is used in the proxie as I have not read any documentation on it. I have used my camera for many Terabytes of footage and have come to my own conclusion that the camera uses whatever you chose for the lut and some thing like redspace for the color space. I know it is not redspace (or does not appear to be) as when I change the settings in redalert to redspace for color space and rec709 for the lut I still need to apply more contrast than stored in the metadata to match the reference quicktimes.

I think whatever is stored in the reference from when it was shot on the camera is what will always be used to regenerate the quicktimes. I do not have any confirmation from red on it.

So long story short, if you shot it with redspace you would need to render out whole quicktimes to color rec709 quictimes.

My simple take is rec709 allows more information to be there to color correct. I still need to correct it, but less is lost than if you use redspace. Redspace is fine to use, just know you have put yourself on a path that is harder to change than rec709. If you like the way it looks in redspace then call it a day and enjoy your footage.

I personally used redspace for tons of stuff, but see the value of using rec709, just when I do I know I will color correct a little more than with redspace (not a good or bad thing, just my take) If I am feeling very lazy I most certainly will use redspace and be very happy.....

good luck

 

[Mark Toia]

Thanks so much for the informative post. Could you explain a little bit more about the reasons for the step quoted above?

Hi Sam,

In your RED CAMERA settings, you can select RED LOG, REC709 or REDSPACE.
Select REC 709.
After all Our testing. RED LOG gives you RED SPACE quicktimes.
Red SPACE gives you obviously RED SPACE quicktime
REC 709 gives you REC 709 quick times. To be honest the rec 709 QUICKTIMES look like shit when you drop the proxies into FCP time line. To saturated, eeeeek. Buuuuut they give you great dynamic range,
Just grade one of them up using the FCP color corrector, then copy the GRADE over all of them, (with a bit of fine tuning on each one to get them perfect)
very simple, still no rendering.
To try and grade the RED SPACE Quick time proxies is hard, REDSPACE is bit of a GRADE that RED has set to make onset monitors look better and for the people that don't grade anything... they are good for that, but it's really hard to push the REDSPACE quicktimes around, Not as good as REC709 Quicktime.