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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Protocol for Footage on Set

Labelling system

Labelling system

Coming to this with a film background, I'm surprised that the Mag Labelling system used by many clapper loaders hasn't followed through to the RED workflow.
Basically it goes like this:
1. Have a label with Date or Time, Mag Number, other production details on it.
When you have a blank Flash card, you write the current Mag Number and Reel number on it, and as this card is inserted in the camera, the label is stuck to the side of the camera.
2. The Focus puller can tick off boxes/info on the label such as 4K/2K, frame rate etc. Possibly even the number of clips on the card. This acts as a check for the DIT when looking at the data.
3. When the card is ejected and given to the DIT, the label goes with it.
Stick the label on the card reader, so you know which reel is being copied - no chance of mix ups if there are multiple cards waiting to be copied.
4. When the card is erased, draw a big red line through the label and stick it on a daily "worksheet".
 
Safety first

Safety first

Nice idea Brie. I have been doing a kinda half assed version of this but your program is much better. Fortunately I have been careful enough and focused enough that I have never lost a frame of footage, but, as my wife will tell you, my memory is not infallible - of course maybe if I wasn't using all my concentration on set I might have a few working brain cells when I got home :clown2:
 
This is a good idea.

As a camera assisant, i will bring to my DIT routine the classic camera report as well.

- All the info as the mag sticker.
- Detail of shoots and good takes.
- Info on the pre-programmed look use during the shoot and ASA (in the film stock section)
- Comments and extra info from DP to DIT
- etc...

But i'm sure that 2nd camera assistant on Red shoot do it similar...

No more "Prep. for video transfer" at the bottom of the camera report, but "Prep. for film transfer". :biggrin:
 
I like this thread because it shows how perception to a problem changes when theory becomes reality.

I shoot CF Cards only. For safety reason. I don't trust HDs they died too many times in my laptops.

We never erase a card on set. In a hectic environment this can end in a desaster.

All cards get numbered when full. Is a number missing - you know you are in trouble.

All cards get copied to a Nexto when taken out of camera.

Cards get reformatted only when all footage is on LTO3 tape and double checked.


This worklflow does need some cards. But as jobs come along there is the opportunity to "collect" cards.

Hans
 
Spinning on

Spinning on

All this hard disk paranoia. If you are shooting in a rugged environment then CF is an easy call but for a lot of shoots the camera, and the Red Drive attached to it, is handled with great care and the risk to your data is minimal. That said, I swap out the Red Drives and back up the data several times per day because its the percentage move.

I do wish it was possible to write to RedDrives and CF simultaneously as that would provide an excellent data security level combined with great operational flexibility and convenience. Perhaps someday.
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
That said, I swap out the Red Drives and back up the data several times per day because its the percentage move.
Click to expand...

So what's the best process for doing this?

I was thinking of using a portable mirrored eSata raid that could accept bare drives. You could use XCopy as indicated above and copy the RED DRIVE to one mirrored raid so you have 2 copies. You just bring a case of bare drives and store them in pairs with details taped to the drive - or written on white gaff tape.

Better ideas?
 
The most elegent solution to all of this is larger faster cheaper RED CF cards.
Data recorded stays on a CF card or (camera data reel) for the duration of
the project and maybe forever if needed. Then you have a system similar to film and tape. The data is duplicated to a system like LTO3 and the cards and tape
get stored in a fire resistant safe back at the production office.
In 1080p land it will be possible to do this with the new Convergent Design
CF recorder. A feature film approx 10000 minutes can be stored at high
data rates on about 40-50 16gig CF cards with this new recorder. It's not
that far removed from 40-50 30 minute HD tapes in terms of cost and storage capacity if the cards can be purchased bulk at a discount rate and reused on the next project after film out or HD delivery.
Productions tend not to reuse HD tape on future projects and as you have a
back up LTO3 data tape all bases are covered for storage.
Look at bulk CF as an investment that can be used on many projects, the more thay are used the cheaper they become. You just have to fork out money to buy them in the first place, Mark them up 1-50, treat them like
film camera reels or source tapes and go for it.
Bigger faster cheaper CF may be needed for R3d @ 4K but this needs to be
the way RED Digital Acquisition works in the long run.
Cheers Mezmo
 
mezmo said:
The most elegent solution to all of this is larger faster cheaper RED CF cards.
Data recorded stays on a CF card or (camera data reel) for the duration of
the project and maybe forever if needed.
Click to expand...

Mezmo, your idea make so much sense... hear it before, but now i think its a very good idea.

The "positive" problem that i found about the Red Drive is its possibility of 320g. The best, from my pov, is if it was only recording 30 min. of 4K. When its full load, you do a fast check for quality control and deal with it like a film mag or HD tape. Ship it at the end of the day to the post-prod. office. No time consuming for data backup, etc...

Can do the same with 16 CF, will be a massive investment at start, but i guess that RED CF wont loss 20% of their value per year as any normal computer hardware.
 
Etienne Caron said:
Can do the same with 16 CF, will be a massive investment at start, but i guess that RED CF wont loss 20% of their value per year as any normal computer hardware.
Click to expand...

Why not? The capacity of flash cards follows Moore's law because they are produced with the same processes used to manufacture other integrated circuits. And RED will probably follow the pricing of the international market, with a premium of course.
 
Gotta keep 'em separated

Gotta keep 'em separated

Joelnet, my general philosophy when backing up, whether in the field or back at the shop, is to create physically separate copies on individual HDDs. While I understand that some RAID topologies have excellent data security and redundancy protocols I like the ability to store the HDDs in different physical locations after the copies are made.

My theory is that physical damage to the enclosures/platters, fire, electrical spikes, floods, etc could take out several copies at once if they were all in the same RAID.

Just my two cents, cribbed from the estimable Evin Grant
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
I like the ability to store the HDDs in different physical locations after the copies are made.
Click to expand...

I think my idea allows for that.

The idea is to have a bunch of bare drives in a case ready to get loaded with data. Take 2 out, pop them into a portable mirrored raid that accepts bare drives, copy the data, take the drives out (labled), seperate them and store each copy wherever you want. I'm not a raid guy, which is why I'm asking - but my theory is you should be able to grab either drive and mount it by itself later, right?

Anyway - I'm trying to come up with a redundant system that uses bare drives but doesn't require copying the data 2 times. I want to copy it once to two drives simulaneously. Just thought RAID 1 might be the fastest route.
 
Fredrik Harreschou said:
Why not? The capacity of flash cards follows Moore's law because they are produced with the same processes used to manufacture other integrated circuits. And RED will probably follow the pricing of the international market, with a premium of course.
Click to expand...

The other possibilty for those worried about hard drives is simply flash based storage. It can be much slower than the CF card you shoot to.

But I think if you dump data from a RED DRIVE every half hour and before you strike a set you're never going to lose a day because a hard drive fails.

RED should implement simultaneous flash and red drive recording though. Then you could cycle flash cards for a 1/2 or hour - when they are full you dump the RED DRIVE, verify the data and repeat. To me that's a pretty bullet proof short term solution.

I'm not worried about 2 hard drives sitting in secure storage BOTH failing. Even if they did the platters could be removed and the data recovered.

I'm more worried about the inevitable RED drive failure on set just after my actress lets the perfect tear slip down her nose and then a real UFO lands on the set.
 
I lost an epic shot on P2 on my HVX due to lax worflow, so I will be paying attention to this thread.
 
Etienne Caron said:
Mezmo, your idea make so much sense... hear it before, but now i think its a very good idea.

The "positive" problem that i found about the Red Drive is its possibility of 320g. The best, from my pov, is if it was only recording 30 min. of 4K. When its full load, you do a fast check for quality control and deal with it like a film mag or HD tape. Ship it at the end of the day to the post-prod. office. No time consuming for data backup, etc...

Can do the same with 16 CF, will be a massive investment at start, but i guess that RED CF wont loss 20% of their value per year as any normal computer hardware.
Click to expand...
Hi Etienne,
Yes saftey in numbers I think is a good thing, the more your data is spread over multiple storage units the safer it becomes. A 35mm Feature Film is
usually stored on about 100 X 1000' rolls, tape on about 50-60 30 min reels.
Insurance is also about risk management, you lower the risk with more storage units and data loss is kept to 1/100th or 1/50th if a unit fails.
So keeping all data on a few hard drives or data tapes is very risky and uninsurable I would imagine with many neg risk companies.
Bulk CF data storage is the way to go IMHO, with data tape as backup.
Cheers Mezmo.
 
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