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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

ProRes422, no 1080p???

T

TimothyD

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I posted this in another thread which was in OT, but I didn't get any responses, so I thought I'd post this here:

(In regard to ProRes422)

In reading it (white paper) I did notice something troubling though. It looks as if Apple only plans to support 1080i and not 1080p. This is very unfortunate in my opinion because I plan to shoot and edit progressive and only use interlacing when outputting for broadcast (a small portion of what I do).

Is this a problem for anyone else? For me, it ensures that I will only use Prores as a delivery format, not for editing. I will be using Redcode for all editing.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this???

Tim
 
I think about renting a HD deck when delivering for broadcast and use Redcode for editing.

Martin
 
I just was super excited about ProRes422 and had somehow missed the fact that they left out 1080p. I have no love for interlaced video, and want it to get as far out of my workflow as possible. So this is major for me.

I have to wonder how this might impact my workflow. Will Redcode work as the render codec? Or will we be faced with a half-a** choice of using either 1080i or even 720p to render? If so, this seems like Apple really screwed up here. I realize they made ProRes to provide an efficient codec for editing HD for broadcast. I just wish they had thought about the fact that people really don't want to work in 1080i if they can have 1080p...

Tim
 
ProRes supports 1080p. This was reported by folks at NAB. It isn't mentioned explicitly in the white paper, but there is a chart there that mentions ProRes does 1920x1080 @ 23.976 fps. That's pretty unlikely to be an interlaced format!

Update: see screen shot from ProRes movie on Apple's web site.

prores.jpg


Everything up to 1080p30.
 
that sounds like good news - i am no fan of interlaced, too!
 
Ok, I hope I don't sound stupid here, but isn't 1080p 60 going to be required to get good results if outputting 1080i for broadcast? That is my concern. I would be happy to shoot in 1080p 30, but I need to have a finished product that is 1080i for broadcast.
 
I thought 1080 23.976 is broadcastable????
I know several shows that deliver masters
on HDCAM in that format....
I delivered a 1080 23.976 .TS stream to
a university that plays everyday from
an MPEG server....
 
TimothyD said:
Ok, I hope I don't sound stupid here, but isn't 1080p 60 going to be required to get good results if outputting 1080i for broadcast? That is my concern. I would be happy to shoot in 1080p 30, but I need to have a finished product that is 1080i for broadcast.
Click to expand...

It depends. If you're making a feature, you'll probably want acquire at 4K, 24 fps, edit using FCP's REDCODE support (once available), and then add pulldown for 1080i deliverables at the end.

If you're producing something more like regular TV programing with 1080i as the primary deliverable, shoot 1080p60 RGB (once that's available) or 2K RAW at 60 fps, and then convert to 1080i ProRes via REDCINE or FCP's "Log & Transfer", and edit that. Yeah, everyone hates interlaced, but if that's your primary deliverable, you're probably better off editing in it.
 
If you're shooting 24P for a film look then your footage will have a 3:2 pulldown added for broadcast in 1080i anyway. If your shooting for 1080i video look then 720 60P will cross convert to the 1080i format beautifully.
You can do a conversion from 1080 60P to 60i Redcine but I would be very surprised if there were any appreciable gain in quality. Essentially 720 60P and 1080 60I are the same resolution, one has more temporal resolution (720) the other has a bigger raster but only displays it one field (50%) at a time. Your call.
 
Hi Chris,

*First, before I forget, I won't be doing any features*

While my deliverable will be 1080i when it is for broadcast, most if not all of what I do is also for the web. That means that while only 10 or less of what I do needs to be output as 1080i, the rest will suffer from interlacing unless I go with something that can be shot and edited progressive, and output as 1080i when necessary for broadcast (5% of the time at most).

Therein lies my problem. So the question is, will 1080p30 look as good as 1080i60 when output as such? It seems like I may run into problems, and that is why I assumed that 1080p60 would be my acquisition and edit format of choice???

Tim
 
Interesting Evin...

I should mention that I had planned to shoot in 2k and then edit as 1080p60. However, shooting 2k and then editing at 720p60 will give me even more room to pan and scan, do image stabilization and zoom in post (a lot if needed).

That is sounding pretty swank. So do you see any drawbacks to the up-rezzing to 1080i from 720p solution??? It almost sounds too good to be true:)
 
Tim

I wouldn't think you would be outputing to 60p web movies any time soon, and even if that was required, at a web resolution, the difference between 60p derived from 60i and 60p would be pretty hard to see. 30p from 60i for web delivery is what is usually done at the moment, so that won't change.

Does that make sense?
 
TimothyD said:
So the question is, will 1080p30 look as good as 1080i60 when output as such?
Click to expand...

I use the HVX recording 1080 30p all the time for work that winds up as web files, and also the same stuff winds up on DVD. 30p is a fine format for NTSC video... it's a little less strobe prone than 24p, yet still more film-like than interlaced footage.

It is NOT the best format for trying to go back to film (24fps) or PAL, but in all other cases is quite nice.
 
Hi guys,

Thanks for the feedback. I suppose I should have mentioned that I will definitely not be outputting at 60p for the web. I just planned to shoot 60p so that it looks good when I output as 60i for broadcast.

I might even drop the frame rate to below 30 for the web in some cases:)

Photo-Jpeg at 15fps looks pretty damn sweet to me:)

I'll also definitely be scaling waaaaay down... I plan to keep most of it in the 16:9 aspect ratio, but will be reducing it to about 50% or less of the original frame size. And yes, I know that shooting HD for web delivery is total overkill... But since I have to shoot HD for the broadcast stuff I do, I might as well kill two birds with one stone, and be able to share b-roll and other assets between all projects...
 
TimothyD said:
Interesting Evin...
So do you see any drawbacks to the up-rezzing to 1080i from 720p solution??? It almost sounds too good to be true:)
Click to expand...

It's actually not an UP-rez, it's a cross convert. And no, I don't see any drawbacks, other than the fact that you need to go to an interlace format at all.
 
Because to do proper compatible 1080i you've got to filter the vertical resolution to about 70%, which makes it about 700 pixels real vertical detail, or else you get interlace twitter. Hence 720p which being what it is, doesn't need any vertical filtering has a full 720p vertical resolution, so yes, it's a cross convert to 1080i. Yes, you're going from 1280 to 1440 (realistically speaking) on the horizontal. But it's near enough.

Graeme
 
That's quite interesting indeed.

Why 1440? Is 720p non-square in the horizontal direction?

It seems like it would still be best to shoot 2k and edit 1080p though.

Could you Red guys pressure Apple on that? It seems like an odd thing to neglect on their part, despite the fact that ProRes is meant to help deal with the broadcast workflow.

The fact that I want to edit in 1080p60 and output in 1080i60 should be a pretty common thing... Doesn't seem like they should have missed this and left it out:(
 
Or more importantly Graeme,

Will it work just as well for me to do my editing and post in 2k Redcode Raw but output the stuff for broadcast as ProRes422 1080i? That would be just as good IMO as using ProRes, or am I missing something? Processor overhead, etc???

Thanks,

Tim
 
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