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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

prores + CDL (unbaked corrections)

My understanding is that you get ProRes files with a choice of whatever look you want baked-in to them. If it's just an editor's copy, then I would guess DragonColor2/RedGamma4 would be a reasonable Rec709 look. If you want a ProRes that can be color-corrected later, then I would assume DragonColor2/RedLogFilm would work OK. CDLs are more applicable for dailies that have a shot-to-shot look, and that has to be exported from a compatible program like Colorfront or Resolve (as far as I know).
 
Yeah, I get that general concept.

I have had a lot of work in quick-turnaround workflows this summer, and that has really been an eyeopener to me (who basically am very happy with online-offline workflows and have been advocating prores from that perspective). A prores "proxy"would have been great for all of them (without transcoding), for a couple, going to RLF prores directly would have been a much BETTER option than what the workflows ended up being as to time/competence-in-the-production constraints.

Now, if it was possible to do like... say the Amira/Mini, to record RLF prores with a metagrade to rec (CDL/controllable LUT/whatever) you could have the best of both worlds for those scenarios.

I am sure we can record RLF prores while monitoring RedGammaX in Weapon, now if the prores could come from flat settings RLF and the WB (and dare I say ISO/gain...) and "look" was metadata applied to the RGB signal in a CDL which say premiere/avid can interpret. That would be another huge timesaver for these quick-to-deliver, but "want to compromise signal as little as possible without people noticing that priority" workflows. Being commercials, or documentaries.

But I guess Mark/Offhollywood can chime in here after a bit of testing

Point is: Prores doesn't need to be "too" baked, and there are workflows addressing that which I think look pretty smart.
 
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It will be good to see the edit prores>finish r3d workflow. It should be simple enough to relink in resolve etc, but I am wondering how FCP X will handle the files as it's quite a bugger to relink to media that it has not created. Premier workflows should be pretty standard on a mac, but how about pc's? Won't they still have to find a way to deal with prores?

I hope RED is preparing a prores workflow whitepaper. All we need is more FUD when this stuff hits the streets.
 
Gunleik Groven said:
Will there be CDL sidecar files for let's say RLF for the prores files recorded on Weapon?
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A CDL is 10 numeric values. It is MUCH easier to apply to a LOG signal path than a 3D LUT.

If RED doesn't have non-destructive CDL's in the R3D header AND the QT wrapper (like AMIRA & ALEXA MINI) I'll be sadly shocked and disappointed.

It is, beyond a shadow of a doubt, 100% possible in the Weapon hardware - since we know what it can do with 3D LUTs, etc.

Yes, needed and wanted BADLY for a long time. Fingers crossed it appears very soon in Weapon firmware.

Also - just FYI - regardless of RED's CDL implementation - the OMOD Engine - which is our board that does signal processing for the OMOD modules for Weapon as well as EPIC - will support CDLs & multiple 33x33x33 3D LUTs on independent signal paths.
 
Can't wait for your observations on this.

Also curious of A/B post created prores vs on-camera prores.

I suspect the on-camera will be superior.

A meta-graded RLF prores which is just optimized for the best possible technical recording + CDL to make it "look".

I see a lot of use for that.
 
Gunleik Groven said:
A meta-graded RLF prores which is just optimized for the best possible technical recording + CDL to make it "look".

I see a lot of use for that.
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A TON of use for it. Even shows like features that will use RAW for finishing - would LOVE to have CDL option just for dailies. ProPres HD + CDL for dailies - RAW R3D 6K/8K for the finish.
 
Mark L. Pederson said:
A TON of use for it. Even shows like features that will use RAW for finishing - would LOVE to have CDL option just for dailies. ProPres HD + CDL for dailies - RAW R3D 6K/8K for the finish.
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I have used that, but it's amazing how often the DP and post supervisor opt to throw out the CDL and just do a new grade. Sometimes we deviate a certain percentage beyond the baked-in temp look from set. I'm with the Roger Deakins school: just do one overall LUT for the entire project and know what your range is later on. I think screwing with the look on every scene or every shot is just too time-consuming on set. Not a problem for the dailies operator or in the final.
 
Marc Wielage said:
I have used that, but it's amazing how often the DP and post supervisor opt to throw out the CDL and just do a new grade. Sometimes we deviate a certain percentage beyond the baked-in temp look from set. I'm with the Roger Deakins school: just do one overall LUT for the entire project and know what your range is later on. I think screwing with the look on every scene or every shot is just too time-consuming on set. Not a problem for the dailies operator or in the final.
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Well ... from my perspective - a CDL is really best for CORRECTION - NOT creative look. It's just WAY too damn limiting for creative look IMO.

So .... the "Roger Deakins school" is a bit mis-understood by many who only get as far as "Roger just uses on LUT!".

He's using one LUT as a "look" - a creative adjustment. CORRECTIONS are still done for dailies - just not on set - and with Roger - there are less corrections needed :)

What we want to see in Weapon is the ability to live grade a CDL while shooting - non destructively over RLF - via RCP - which would mean that any app like Pomfort LiveGrade or Foolcontrol could just send the CDL - and revised CDL, etc. - while shooting - and whatever the CDL values were before you are CUT - is what are recorded into the meta data.

Now, sure, I know that folks like to tinker and change CDLs after the fact - BUT - of course you can still do that since it's non-destructive. But you get get the lions share done while rolling.

And one of the reason they keep changing the CDL after the shot is ... because they can :) When it becomes seemless and simple and real-time and 90%+ render free (only render re-processed shots) - just watch how many folks start to nail their CDLs while the shot is rolling.

Further - is you are use Teradek for wireless video - their new units have the USB 3.0 GRAB Engine - so your DIT or on-set colorist has a receiver with the USB 3.0 GRAB Engine plugged into their system - and they are locally recording each shot so that they can A/B with the live signal in LiveGrade, etc.

Trust me - you want to start using one 3D LUT for a creative look. And then use R3D RAW processing parameters via RCP or CDLs via RCP for corrections/matching/tweeking.

CDLs are fine for basic dailies corrections - which is rather critical on many productions where people get fired because executives don't understand RAW or much of anything about post production workflows.
 
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Mark L. Pederson said:
Well ... from my perspective - a CDL is really best for CORRECTION - NOT creative look. It's just WAY too damn limiting for creative look IMO.
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I think that's what I said, in that we throw it out and start over. As long as you have it for reference, it's fine. The dailies are just the dailies.
 
Depending what position you are lol...
 
Gunleik Groven said:
Will there be CDL sidecar files for let's say RLF for the prores files recorded on Weapon?
Click to expand...

Feature Request... When posting using acronyms, it would be helpful to those of us not fully immersed in the jargon if you could initially identify the terms the acronym stands for. I'm not talking about the AFAIKs and the LOLs, but the CDL ones.

I've always thought of a CDL as being the acronym for Commercial Drivers License, and indeed when I went to google that was what showed up.

Thanks for any help to the jargon-challenged. '-)
 
Color decision list I bet as opposed to edit decision list... But I'm guessing I just call it LUTs typically
 
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