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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Properly graded...

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Liana said:
I am surprised that Red have not yet produced a graphical flowchart
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What are those things called... ah, tower graphics. If someone can do a tower graphic along these lines, it will make the whole process (such as it is) more friendly:

http://www.maxgadney.com/2010/10/the-rise-of-the-tower-graphic-and-video-thanks-to-tom-pearson.html

An ironic aside: the last thing I want is video tutorials. Fuck that. What is it with some Internet fashions? Seriously. I don't want to have to watch some bullshit video, I want either words or graphics so I can go at my own pace in my own way. Just thinking about watching a video about how to use an software application provokes a potential mental breakdown. (Needless to say, different strokes for different folks.)

Gunleik Groven said:
3.
Treat it as a daylight filmstock throughout.
Light for that, but if you cannot, still do not choose a wb below about 4400 or above 6000 in post, as those settings add some grain to the image.
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Very good point in its own right. Better to use filters. I read a post about this here a few months back. Filters mitigate an exposure imbalance between the three colour channels. To think that all you have to do in all situations is tweak a setting on the camera for this is naive, but it's a consequence of digital photography and what photographers think it means.

Gavin Greenwalt said:
I'll say the exact same thing I've said since the first month that the REDOne was released and there was less than 100 cameras out in the wild:

"The reason people keep screwing up RED footage is because the tools practically encourage people to do it. Defaults make all the difference. UI makes all the difference. If this many people are doing something wrong, they aren't doing anything wrong, the tools are to blame."
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Didn't someone post a thread about 'FLUT presets'? Surely there is such a thing as a camera preset (which the user needs to enter) for 'neutral colour and contrast'? Speaking only for myself, I have no need for anything beyond that because all the photography I do is documentary (theatre, weddings, etc.). Yes, I tweak WB etc. but I don't radically alter it. I am not after 'looks'. I want the lenses and light to do the talking.

What I'm thinking is half-way between shooting slides and shooting negatives. If that makes any sense at all.

Sergio Perez said:
Another thing Red could come up with is a Red developed "presets" or " templates" in the custom saved area.
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As I wrote above, maybe these are better implemented in the camera? Just IMHO. That way, all you have to do is import and export. Boom. Done. That of course is assuming that you have exposed the shot correctly and that you don't require any highlight recovery.


BRANDON JAMESON said:
I totally agree with you about REDucation...but, in a conversation with folks that won't consider paying for essential software, forget asking them to actually PAY for school!!!!
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Without paying a fee, I do not expect to be in the presence of experts. That is just me! However, I expect the software to be free. I want to be able to play with RAW footage, kindly supplied by other RED owners, on my own computer, without restriction, even if I don't yet own a RED camera.

Just two more cents from a film/TV non-professional.
 
It almost sound like people are saying here, if i use Alexa, Arri RAW (let's compare orange to orange), it wont be screwed up like RED. Our experiences tell exactly the other way around, and the support is no where near RED which is very straight forward. Arri doesnt have a fool proof workflow either. It's the people who screwed up, please dont blame the tool, blame the incompetence. No medicine can cure laziness. And BTW, Film has been going around for 100 years+ and it still screwed up by incompetence.

I think the story is simple enough, there's no need for further complicated brilliant idea apart from Simple graph to explain to the producer.

Rivai
 
RivaiC said:
It almost sound like people are saying here, if i use Alexa, Arri RAW (let's compare orange to orange), it wont be screwed up like RED. Our experiences tell exactly the other way around, and the support is no where near RED which is very straight forward. Arri doesnt have a fool proof workflow either. It's the people who screwed up, please dont blame the tool, blame the incompetence. No medicine can cure laziness. And BTW, Film has been going around for 100 years+ and it still screwed up by incompetence.

I think the story is simple enough, there's no need for further complicated brilliant idea apart from Simple graph to explain to the producer.

Rivai
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+1

Perfectly put!
 
RivaiC said:
It almost sound like people are saying here, if i use Alexa, Arri RAW (let's compare orange to orange), it wont be screwed up like RED. Our experiences tell exactly the other way around, and the support is no where near RED which is very straight forward. Arri doesnt have a fool proof workflow either. It's the people who screwed up, please dont blame the tool, blame the incompetence. No medicine can cure laziness. And BTW, Film has been going around for 100 years+ and it still screwed up by incompetence.

I think the story is simple enough, there's no need for further complicated brilliant idea apart from Simple graph to explain to the producer.

Rivai
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Agreed
 
RivaiC said:
It almost sound like people are saying here, if i use Alexa, Arri RAW (let's compare orange to orange), it wont be screwed up like RED. ...
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The issue is that the Alexa does "apples" recording as well, i.e. recording to ProRes. The Red cams can't do that internally.

BTW, Avid's been asked more than a few times over the past two years to contact Red concerning joint developing a DNxHD module. But I have no idea where this ranks on their list of things to do.
 
SImplicity is key IMHO.
elaborate tweaking without understanding the consequences to the signal is the reason for 2/3 of the images I get asked to look into because they somehow "suck"
The last 1/3 is due to exposure without any contrast at all...
The Epic loves contrast. Even relative contrast within a low exposure can make it live and shine.
 
Peter Moretti said:
The issue is that the Alexa does "apples" recording as well, i.e. recording to ProRes. The Red cams can't do that internally.

BTW, Avid's been asked for over two years to contact Red concerning joint developing a DNxHD module. But being that they can't even get the Alt key in MC 6 to activate the toolbar menus in Windows, I have no idea where this ranks on their list of things to do.
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With a little bit more money which doesnt cost than the entire Alexa. 3rd party support solution like Ninja, Samurai, Pix240 can already do that. In my understanding, Arri cant record Arri RAW internally either and the recorder cost you arms and legs.

You can treat RED with embeded color space (RC3) and gamma (RG2,RG3,RLF) exactly like Alexa, record to pix240, forget the r3d and do whatever you want, load straight to NLE and treat the apple prores as your master. No difference, SDI outout from EPIC is full debayer. Simple just like what most people want, even Jim doesnt recommend doing so (of course RAW is better), but if you dont want that "complication", other road is open for you and it's available now.

If there's one thing that we can fight head to head between Red and Arri is the color rendition, which i believe that is the hidden message from Jim, but the entire thread has taken the wrong way to workflow issue instead altho related, but color science is the whole different ball game and discussion.

Rivai
 
I agree that having built-in RAW recording on Red's cameras is crazy awesome. And it's a lot cheaper to get an external ProRes/DNxHD recorder than one that records RAW. But external third-party recorders are not entirely seemless to use. So it makes sense that people who don't want a RAW workflow are interested in looking at cameras like the Alexa and C300.


P.S. I edited my post about Avid. Windows Alt key behavior has been restored in version 6.03 ;).
 
As far as i know, the third party has been simple enough. I had problems with SDI output from EPIC sometimes, that will be the complain that i want to address to RED. Apart from that it's a breeze. Maybe that's what you refer to when you said it's not seamless, in this case i agree :) Shit did happen sometimes.

Rivai
 
My 2 cents

My 2 cents

As someone who teaches RED for a living, I have to say I'm a little disappointed that our message is not out there better. I admit that is can be a little frustrating that some people want all this education for the camera and then follow that up with "And it needs to be FREE!"

It's never free.. You pay for the education, or you pay more for the camera/software to SUPPORT the education.

As for RED102.. We're either $44 per month (one month at a time) or $28.95 per month (Three months at a time). Right now our REDCine modules are weak, but we are in the process of putting a LOT Of focus on them. But with current membership levels it is hard to start up a whole new team for JUST RedCine X (Which it what we need to do) If there were 60 more of you on line, we'd have a stronger budget to the point of being able to put up one in-depth video per week. I'm not going to say who, but some of the experts on here have already had discussions with me on this very subject. They are ready to go, I just need the money to get them started.

Because our school is ongoing, the program is flexible. I.E. Members write to us and tell us what they want, then we go out and make them. You guys want us to break REDCine X and go over it with a fine-tooth comb? Sure, we'll break it down and go CRAZY with videos covering every single aspect, but we need enough people to support the project (About 60 additional members would do it). I would say it would take us three weeks to get the first videos online, and then that would be followed up by 1 per week. My goal would be to hire a separate group of people who do NOTHING but REDCine X tutorials.

REDucation is a no brainer.. Everyone getting into RED should do that!

Guys this stuff is hard.. And terribly time consuming. While you all want education and information on REDCine X, you also all want it done differently. Some HATE videos, some love them, some want free, some want to pay, some want DPX some want to stay with R3D. To top it all off, the numbers of RED customers are not that high when compared to lower cost cameras. We are in effect, a nitch, in a nitch market.

This is why we have not done a DVD this time.. EPIC and SCARLET are still new... The program requires more flexibility than a DVD can provide. In many ways the same could be said of print material at this time.

So here's the deal. You want more info on REDCine X? No problem, we can do that. The structure is in place, and we can start next week.. But we need the budget to do it. 60 more members that join wanting REDCine X tutorials, and I will put them together.

Why do we need more members? Cause I am not good enough to teach the advanced points of REDCine X. I need to hire working EXPERTS in the field, and I am not going to insult them by asking them to put in hours of time for FREE.

Are there free videos online? Yes.. But the problem is:
1: You have to search for them
2: There is no logical progression since the subjects are hap-hazard. People basically jumping in and showing off one specific thing.

This is why we do what we do.. Having videos is not enough.. You have to have a plan, a path to follow.

Education is HARD guys. Takes a lot of money, and a lot of time. Most of you making requests are looking at the project through your own needs.. That's cool.. I do that too, but on our end we have to look at it taking into account ALL Of your needs.

It's been my dream to break apart REDCine X and REALLY get a good program put together for it for a long time. Perhaps we could get started now.

I created our whole thing for the REDUser community. it's doing well, but there is SO MUCH material that needs to be covered. When we started, I was not really into the software side, but people have been BEGGING for REDCine X stuff. All levels of it. Ok... I'm on board. So it RED.. They will make stuff too, but you cannot expect them to make it their sole focus, they are also making cameras after all.

Sign up. Tell us what you want. We'll make it.. It's that simple

I hope in the near future we can do something about this. One way or the other I intend too.

Jay
 
Jay A. Kelley said:
As someone who teaches RED for a living, I have to say I'm a little disappointed that our message is not out there better. I admit that is can be a little frustrating that some people want all this education for the camera and then follow that up with "And it needs to be FREE!"

It's never free.. You pay for the education, or you pay more for the camera/software to SUPPORT the education.

As for RED102.. We're either $44 per month (one month at a time) or $28.95 per month (Three months at a time). Right now our REDCine modules are weak, but we are in the process of putting a LOT Of focus on them. But with current membership levels it is hard to start up a whole new team for JUST RedCine X (Which it what we need to do) If there were 60 more of you on line, we'd have a stronger budget to the point of being able to put up one in-depth video per week. I'm not going to say who, but some of the experts on here have already had discussions with me on this very subject. They are ready to go, I just need the money to get them started.

Because our school is ongoing, the program is flexible. I.E. Members write to us and tell us what they want, then we go out and make them. You guys want us to break REDCine X and go over it with a fine-tooth comb? Sure, we'll break it down and go CRAZY with videos covering every single aspect, but we need enough people to support the project (About 60 additional members would do it). I would say it would take us three weeks to get the first videos online, and then that would be followed up by 1 per week. My goal would be to hire a separate group of people who do NOTHING but REDCine X tutorials.

REDucation is a no brainer.. Everyone getting into RED should do that!

Guys this stuff is hard.. And terribly time consuming. While you all want education and information on REDCine X, you also all want it done differently. Some HATE videos, some love them, some want free, some want to pay, some want DPX some want to stay with R3D. To top it all off, the numbers of RED customers are not that high when compared to lower cost cameras. We are in effect, a nitch, in a nitch market.

This is why we have not done a DVD this time.. EPIC and SCARLET are still new... The program requires more flexibility than a DVD can provide. In many ways the same could be said of print material at this time.

So here's the deal. You want more info on REDCine X? No problem, we can do that. The structure is in place, and we can start next week.. But we need the budget to do it. 60 more members that join wanting REDCine X tutorials, and I will put them together.

Why do we need more members? Cause I am not good enough to teach the advanced points of REDCine X. I need to hire working EXPERTS in the field, and I am not going to insult them by asking them to put in hours of time for FREE.

Are there free videos online? Yes.. But the problem is:
1: You have to search for them
2: There is no logical progression since the subjects are hap-hazard. People basically jumping in and showing off one specific thing.

This is why we do what we do.. Having videos is not enough.. You have to have a plan, a path to follow.

Education is HARD guys. Takes a lot of money, and a lot of time. Most of you making requests are looking at the project through your own needs.. That's cool.. I do that too, but on our end we have to look at it taking into account ALL Of your needs.

It's been my dream to break apart REDCine X and REALLY get a good program put together for it for a long time. Perhaps we could get started now.

I created our whole thing for the REDUser community. it's doing well, but there is SO MUCH material that needs to be covered. When we started, I was not really into the software side, but people have been BEGGING for REDCine X stuff. All levels of it. Ok... I'm on board. So it RED.. They will make stuff too, but you cannot expect them to make it their sole focus, they are also making cameras after all.

Sign up. Tell us what you want. We'll make it.. It's that simple

I hope in the near future we can do something about this. One way or the other I intend too.

Jay
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Jay, please don't take offense to this because I think what you are doing with training is great and we all know in the capacity you're doing it is hard and requires subscribers. I too have for sale tutorials out in the marketplace as well as work closely with Adobe TV. So I understand the landscape. What you're doing is great for the community, but on a grand scale the training to be really valid to industry people needs to be authorized by RED with a big RED logo on it that says we approve this message and here is where you go to get it. Oh, and unfortunately it needs to be free and sponsored to keep the crew paid to keep the customers watching. I hate to say that but it's true. While you will receive the small niche owner/operators you will not have the numbers you hope because people on the Internet expect everything for free. I hope you get your extra 60 members needed but I don't see this as the end all be all solution for the problem. I can't tell a producer who doesn't get it to go to your website, pay a fee and hope you have the videos that will put their fears to rest like from a non-RED employee or non officially authorized by RED training boutique site. The issue at large is much bigger than the solution you are offering.
Now if I could point a producer to an official RED TV / Training site that is completely free to the viewer minus a 15 sec ad at the head of each video to get the clarification from RED evangelists, employees, and watch successful customer stories from all aspects of production and post-production industry professionals this would now put some of those fears at ease. And the best part is the key advertisers from say, HP, Adobe, Intel, Panasonic, Christie, etc pay the bill for the small crew to produce numerous videos each week, month, year that keeps extremely current releases up to date working with RED to release these micro videos and have them ready to view at the same time the new product whether it's software or hardware is released, well that's a site that would help solve some real large scale issues here. This is not intended to diminish what you're doing in any way but rather to shed light on a potential solution to the issues that plague RED in certain aspects of their business.
 
Mike that was a very nice post, and I am grateful for the way you worded it.

I understand what you are saying to a point, and I never said our program would be the "final solution". In fact that is true of everyone. The student must find the program that fits their need.

Actually I think we will in fact get the 60 members, but it will take time.. These things happen in small steps. And eventually, once enough videos are made, we'll move it over to a DVD. But this is way down the road.

You are so correct about people wanting everything on the web for free.. But another factor is also that even today, people still get what they pay for. A little research has shown me that there are currently over 100 "Free" videos on REDCine in one shape or form currently flying about on the web. But they are dis organized, and not a lot of use.

I understand that people are trying to drive RED to come up with more tutorials, and I am willing to bet you, after this thread, you will see more focus on REDCineX in future tutorials. But where things might get a little sticky is that RED may very well focus on those processes that RED believes in, while some of you (Like Bruce mentioned) might want RED to highlite workflows that RED does not really endorse.. You see, it can all be very subjective.

Personally I back up RED's feeling to stay in R3D as long as possible, and that's what we teach. HOWEVER, my members / customers are telling me they want more. They want a larger pallett of workflows to choose from, and so I will make this adjustment.

Anyway.. I'm actually shooting today.. So I gotta take off.. Thanks again for the well worded reply

Jay
 
@Jay, I hope you do get your members needed because you are doing a good service for this community. What you mentioned about non-sanctioned workflows is correct but in a site like the one I mentioned there is room for both official workflows staying in R3D until the last minute, a channel on VFX workflows, and workflows originating and ending in Premiere, FCP, Vegas, Avid, Resolve, Scratch, Speedgrade, Smoke etc. there are many ways to work with RED and those workflows need to be demonstrated by professionals who can get the most of the images and know how to work with REDCODE whether it's staying in R3D or transcoding. These workflows for each company can be sorted in a very easy to access channel system with newly revised videos featured in a large graphic (FMA) interface so sight admin can feature new content that is most relevant to the approved way of working.
 
Agreed sir.. Not to mention there is no way I could cover all the flavors of post. I will only be able to take on 3 or 4 at best. While I am not "officially RED sanctioned" My relationship with this is wonderful. And they have always been EXTREMELY supportive. Ted, Jarred, and Jim have always been there when I needed them.

I'll keep an eye on what they do and try not to duplicate their subject matter unless I think our spin would be worth doing as well.

Jay
 
Peter Moretti said:
The issue is that the Alexa does "apples" recording as well, i.e. recording to ProRes. The Red cams can't do that internally.

BTW, Avid's been asked more than a few times over the past two years to contact Red concerning joint developing a DNxHD module. But I have no idea where this ranks on their list of things to do.
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So, what you want is a paid component that would do the "apples" piece, just like Alexa charges for their RAW upgrade + you have to buy a very $$$$$$ deck to make it happen>
 
BRANDON JAMESON said:
really?

did you see HIS post?

btw: there is no such word as un-appropriate AND REDuser requests your REAL name.

you go work on that.
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I think arguments and facts will work better here. This was very low. I like normally the professional way of this forum, none needs to get personal here. Thanks for quoting my mistake, which I corrected while you were pointing it out. Can we go to the main theme now. Thanks. This is my real name and my Doctor is even in my passport, as it is part of my name. Any other questions?
 
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