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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Project Funded, Red Gear Time!

Jeffrey T. Morgan

Jeffrey T. Morgan

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Hey Guys,

First, I have been on hear reading for a LONG time.... not as long as some, but I have been faithful, lol.

On Monday I secured the first half of my budget for a post-apocolyptic Drama/fantasy/action movie. I know, when will the post-apocolyptia end!? ;-)

As it is, if the next 2 weeks go well, we will shoot in May, if not, then August.

I would love to run a few questions by all of you, and get your unfettered constructive criticism / support?

First, what are your thoughts on if Epic will be able to be bought by a non-red owner like me by May? I am not interested in getting it the day before I start, so more like April.

If it ends up being August, we all think thats a sure thing, right?

At this point it looks like I can skip considering scarlet, which I have been ready to buy off and on for a year and a half. So I will leave that out for now, since if Epic is not here in a real meaningful (available to everyone) way, then I will happily "settle" for a Red One MX.

Quick Background. I am a Union Cinematographer, I feel very confident in what I am narrowed down to, but it does represent a step up for me, and I appreciate feedback. I am in to quality that will last, though at this stage Master Primes and the like are out of my range.

CAMERA SETUP:

Red One MX or Epic

A few Red Pro Primes and a Zoom, or a set of Zeiss Compact Primes and a Red Zoom. SUPER interested to hear thoughts here.

Which affordable but great mattbox? Which ND / polarizers?

Red rock remote follow focus, if released?

Wireless video feed for follow focus?

SSD module with 2 or 3 64gb red mags

Power? I don't fully know how to maximize my power supply here, red bricks? Redvolt?

7" and 5" lcds

Viewfinder?

23" hdmi monitor

Cabling and support for all that

I have a cool shoulder mount that is easy for height adjustment ( I am 6 ' tall ) though I really want a red gunner

good long lasting rig that will support this, I am leaning towards OConnor 2065. Open to other (cheaper) ideas.

Steadicam Flyer

Home Skateboard Dolly that has worked wonderfully!

8 - 12 foot jib


POST:

CS5 system, one on set capture and conversion station / Assistant edit system

One slightly beefier main edit system. Already tested and working.

No red rocket at this time.



I think this is it right now. I know its a lot to ask, but I think others can learn as I have from feedback. And we all like to dream.

I am continually grateful for this knowledge base. Heaven forbid a camera comes out that I can buy as a non-red owner, lol! Looks like that might be about to happen.

Sorry I am not Spiderman 4.
 
epic.. No chance.. unless you buy it from a stage 2 owner who is looking to flip the camera for a NICE profit.

most likely 35-40k premium

but i guess the question is.. why buy? just rent it
 
Curious, why are you buying a camera when you will be consumed with this feature film for at least a year after you shoot it and since its partially funded, there is a high probability you will be liquidating that gear to pay for post. Happens all the time on indies. I would rent the best package you can at the time and stick with all ARRI support gear for MB and FF. Its expensive for a reason.

I highly recommend you rent the camera as an EPIC will be available (I will have a couple) but seriously find someone in your market and RENT... and do yourself a BIG FAVOR... DEFINITELY BUY A RED ROCKET! Battle Tested are only $3K in the store. You won't know how you survived without one.

By the time the feature is finished, there should be plenty of RED camera options to purchase. That's my 2 cents.
 
Thanks all for the feedback!

I run a production company and operate as a "Have gun will travel" DP here in Michigan. Having my own camera has got me this far and I pretty much need the flexibility of always having the camera on hand to do tests, play around with and do pickups and inserts with.

I also have been very good so far at budgeting, which means I don't liquidate one resource for another... thank god!

I appreciate the Red Rocket point. at $3k it may be doable.

I guess I also would be willing to rent glass. I could buy an 18-50 or 18-85, then rent a nice set of primes to save some serious dough... I know a guy with a few sets.

Again, and no offense to those who want to make money back on their own Epic purchases, but I like to own. Call it a security blanket or a desire for mastering something. The longer view for my company makes a lot more sense with something on hand, both as a production house and myself as a DP. If it was a choice to rent an EPIC or buy a scarlet, I would probably do the latter. But really, I will just buy a Red One if Epic is still tinkering along.

Arri MB and FF? cool.

Again, thanks all, I am feverishly chewing all this over and taking notes.
 
What Tim said. Rent. It's less hassle and you'll get better support (depending on the rental house). I assume since you're a union cinematographer you want a camera for the future.

Don't do HDMI, it's a hassle. The cable's suck for real on set work and are expensive.
 
Steadicam Flyer isn't a good fit with Red One (too heavy), but maybe OK for Epic, especially if it's the HD LE version.
 
Jeffrey T. Morgan said:
Thanks all for the feedback!

I run a production company and operate as a "Have gun will travel" DP here in Michigan. Having my own camera has got me this far and I pretty much need the flexibility of always having the camera on hand to do tests, play around with and do pickups and inserts with.

I also have been very good so far at budgeting, which means I don't liquidate one resource for another... thank god!

I appreciate the Red Rocket point. at $3k it may be doable.

I guess I also would be willing to rent glass. I could buy an 18-50 or 18-85, then rent a nice set of primes to save some serious dough... I know a guy with a few sets.

Again, and no offense to those who want to make money back on their own Epic purchases, but I like to own. Call it a security blanket or a desire for mastering something. The longer view for my company makes a lot more sense with something on hand, both as a production house and myself as a DP. If it was a choice to rent an EPIC or buy a scarlet, I would probably do the latter. But really, I will just buy a Red One if Epic is still tinkering along.

Arri MB and FF? cool.

Again, thanks all, I am feverishly chewing all this over and taking notes.
Click to expand...

Well that makes more sense than making ONE movie :) Lots of M-X for sale at great prices right now.

A 17 - 50 RPZ and an 85 RPP is nice little affordable set and then rent the rest. Glass requests vary too much. PLUS The mechanics of the older red zooms is less than pro.

Arri MB and FF all the way Ive bought and sold every other make... they dont last. and pulling focus is #1 - dont skimp here FF-2 (used) or FF-4 will make the Puller happy.
 
Thanks Justin Eric and Tim!

I understand HDMI issues now that you mention it and I agree FF quality is paramount. Right there with you.

Any other suggestions for replacements on there?
 
As someone who has no understanding of your local market or the kind of work you normally do, from the point of view of long-term ownership, I'd say right now is the right time to buy glass and rent camera. An R1MX is a great camera but the bottom may be about to fall out in terms of rental/resale and you're probably 3 months too early to get on the Epic/Scarlet wagon. Glass, on the other hand, is glass and, when Epic and Scarlet start to ship, there's going to be a glut you may well be able to take some advantage of.

Definitely get a Red Rocket. You'll never look back on that one. On the edit front, if you're on Mac, get FCS too, if you're on PC, buy Avid MC5. Both really inexpensive and, IMHO, a much better edit option than CS5. Cutting a feature you'll thank me before you're done.

The other thing you've not covered is data backup. IMPERATIVE! There is no neg. There are no tapes. At least buy an LTO4/5 for onset backups (and send them off somewhere away from the post house, do not pass go, do not collect $200). If the unthinkable happens, these are your neg.
 
LOL,

Shane, thanks for weighing in. I am and have been a FCP user for 12 years now, the only reason I have recently went to CS5 is the lack of updates for FCS (bluray? anyone? Bueller?) and the better and better integration of the other adobe products. vs most anything these are superior, though I will admit i only ever tinkered with Avid.

Backup is SO TRUE. I will have my internal raid, the assistants internal raid, and a cheap (slow) external backup in post, on set I will dump to one inernal and one external drive at the same time.

Your thoughts on glass are pretty enlightening, actually. Because you are right that buying right before the Epic comes out might change not only the resale value of my Red One (which I am less concerned with, but also the desire for people to hire me with a Red One vs an Epic....... food for thought for sure!

I have read nothing but good things on Red Glass..... tempting! I know a few cool sources for a R1 for rental *taps chin in thought*

Thanks!
 
Oh, hey, so just to make sure my theories are in line with yours, you think the May shoot date will miss the Epic Public Release date, not the August, right?
 
Well, quite honestly, at this stage it's anyone's guess. I mean, even Jim can't accurately estimate that one. All I know is that the new cameras are so far ahead of everything else that has come before, Red One included, that everything is going to take a hit. The price of revolution. Of course, if you find someone jumping ship right now and can get an MX at a good price, you'd be mad not to get it - they're a fantastic camera - but when your competitors have an Epic ...

There are so many options for glass right now but when the Epics and Scarlets begin flowing every man and his dog is going to be wanting PL glass. Happened with the R1 and it will happen 3 fold with the new cams.

One more word on backups. When you say drives, you're talking RAIDs right? RAID 5? Don't mean to teach you to suck eggs but you do understand that anything stored on a HDD, untouched for a year or more, becomes seriously risky. Left on a shelf, drives may not spin up after a time, leaving you with very costly data retrieval costs to restore. LTO's and single LTO drives are relatively cheap. Really can't emphasise that too much. To tape onset and straight to a 3rd location. We've had a couple of post house catch fire downunder and, without backups, it's goodnight nurse and good luck funding your reshoot or the next project.
 
The best advice is to never plan a shoot around an unreleased camera regardless of how much evidence there is that it will exist.

There are some great deals on MX cameras at the moment, which would be fabulous as well as save some money.

I agree with you that owning your own gear is the only way to go. If this movie was the only thing you were planning to do it wouldn't make sense, but that's not going to happen.

Also, I have found HDMI to be perfectly acceptable on set as long as you aren't looking to do a complicated video village. If it's mainly to have a large monitor on set, as long as you anchor the cable properly it works great. I bought a 30ft HDMI cable 2 years ago for $30 and it still works as well as the day I got it.
 
ericyoung said:
Steadicam Flyer isn't a good fit with Red One (too heavy), but maybe OK for Epic, especially if it's the HD LE version.
Click to expand...

Steadicam new Zephyr is perfect fit. Flies Red no issues at all.

As per HDMI we have an HDlite and it works 100% perfectly all the time and cost $159 (!!!!!). I would have gladly paid $3000 for it.
 
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Shane Betts said:
Well, quite honestly, at this stage it's anyone's guess. I mean, even Jim can't accurately estimate that one. All I know is that the new cameras are so far ahead of everything else that has come before, Red One included, that everything is going to take a hit. The price of revolution. Of course, if you find someone jumping ship right now and can get an MX at a good price, you'd be mad not to get it - they're a fantastic camera - but when your competitors have an Epic ...

There are so many options for glass right now but when the Epics and Scarlets begin flowing every man and his dog is going to be wanting PL glass. Happened with the R1 and it will happen 3 fold with the new cams.

One more word on backups. When you say drives, you're talking RAIDs right? RAID 5? Don't mean to teach you to suck eggs but you do understand that anything stored on a HDD, untouched for a year or more, becomes seriously risky. Left on a shelf, drives may not spin up after a time, leaving you with very costly data retrieval costs to restore. LTO's and single LTO drives are relatively cheap. Really can't emphasise that too much. To tape onset and straight to a 3rd location. We've had a couple of post house catch fire downunder and, without backups, it's goodnight nurse and good luck funding your reshoot or the next project.
Click to expand...

I disagree that one will no longer be able to shoot on MX when others have Epics. This is simply not realistic. If you have a great reel and deliver quality each time no one is going to say that they instead want the less competent guy, because he or she has an Epic. An MX has been used to film huge Hollywood stuff - that level of quality will still be just as possible after Epic ships.
 
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Again, thanks to all for chiming in.

Shane - you are talking down to me, no worries. I will have a fast raid for editing, and single drives for backup. It would take 3 failures at the same time in different locations to lose everything. When the project is done, 4 months after the shoot, I will do a more long lasting backup. Your LTO advice is well received. I could see me going that way when picture gets locked.

I think Flyer might be ok, given the stripped down way I like to shoot (since I shoot mostly for myself) but I have been looking into the Zephyr for sure.

My real plan for using HDMI on set would be when the camera isn't moving, or just to get a closer view on a super specific shot, like low light or FX plate, etc. I am a big fan in a big but on camera LCD and a nice viewfinder... and a badass pulling focus!

Release dates are super intriguing... I have went through every emotion waiting for red to release Scarlet / Epic... I am now a bit zen about it.

To he who waits will come the camera he deserves should he choose to have it.

something like that, ;-)
 
if you can get a really good deal for a used R1, i would think about going for it.
otherwise, i would consider renting an epic (or R1), until you get yours.
i'm guessing there's no way you can postpone production...
 
Like last time, price drop will occur when many people want $$ to pay rest of Epic Stage 2, but then will likely go up again. There aren't that many Red 1s out there (6000 in all? less?) , some will be "decommissioned" when sent in for Stage 3, and many, like us, will keep theirs as B Cam after stage 2 anyway - others still will not buy Epic and will simply keep shooting with their Red. It's not like an EX1 or an HVX, where there are maybe 100 000 units or more in the wild.
 
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