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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Producer decides to pay more for a HVX rental over a Red

Finner, buy an HVX and rent it for the same price as your RED. I have an HVX but promote the jobs I have done with RED. I just rent the RED as I go and most agencies would rather go RED, not because they know the difference between a RED and an HVX but because they can see the difference and are savvy enough to know it's the final result that counts.
 
but the red was passed over for a HVX
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If for the A camera was chosen a Panasonic Varicam i'd have passed RED for HVX too.

When working with digital cameras I prefer to have all cameras sharing the same workflow.
DVCPRO HD is quite good and works smooth on every NLE.

So if the producer decided DVCPRO HD and Varicam quality was good enough,for the propose HVX is the natural choice.

From an HVX you get images you can treat like they were coming out from the A camera.

RED needs a workflow as soon as possible.
Actually the only reasonable and complete is the ASSIMILATE workflow.
As everybody knows its not priced aggressively. Basically it's priced for companies that makes of post production the main business.

For short futures and commercials the FCP-Automatic Duck-AE workflow is interesting and works flawless.

In the next months Adobe and Apple will release their workflow.

The perfect workflow.

Timeline accepts .R3D files
Depending on your system you can chose a working resolution independently from the final output.
No color information trashed before output.
Being able edit and manipulate all the metadata parameters for the clip added in the timeline directly from the NLE like you would have done in RedCine a sort of RedCine plugin you apply to the clips (would also be welcome if this parameters could be animated using keyframes).

Maybe one day...
 
CineForm

CineForm

If Red One could just record native CineForm 4K we would all have had a workflow from day one. Red's choice of JPEG2000 guarantees (sans Scratch) non realtime debayer with today's and for the forseeable future's technology. Now Red has released the SDK but with no RAW output. The SDK requires third parties to first debayer before rendering to any other file format. Red has stated that a future release will provide for a direct RAW output but who knows when that will occur. To provide us Red owners with a workflow that does not include a $32,000 or $72,000 Scratch, CineForm has devised an innovative proxy scheme of it's own. Just shoot on Red, then make color perfect 1024x512 CineForm proxies at about 60 FPS, then edit and color correct these proxies while the R3D's render in the background to CineForm 444 or CineForm RAW. Then just replace your edited files with the larger rendered files which will accept all color corrections made on the proxies. CineForm is at the forefront of providing a working, near realtime and extremely flexible work flow. Even Scratch does not offer the benefits of CineForm.
 
Bruce Allen said:
It'd be here already if Red had decided to send Avid, discreet, Quantel, etc a description of their file format.

It is very unusual and weird to release a new product like this but not to give proper information to the post production software companies.
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I'm an Avid editor and I think RED was right about their decision on that. There were a lot of changes in the codec and format up until Build 16. By limiting their partners they were able to be much more proactive in managing support for those changes.

Had they opened it up early then the post workflow would have a really bad rep by now as deadlines were missed because the NLE you were using wasn't yet up to date with the changes made in the last 'point-version' upgrade of the camera firmware. The codebase of modern NLEs is huge and their engineering teams aren't exactly in the best position to be super-responsive when every version needs to be tested before release.

With FCP they were fairly lucky in that the only thing that really needed changing was the QT Component, but even then there were a number of times when the post side wasn't up to date with the camera.
 
Timeline accepts .R3D files
Depending on your system you can chose a working resolution independently from the final output.
No color information trashed before output.
Being able edit and manipulate all the metadata parameters for the clip added in the timeline directly from the NLE like you would have done in RedCine a sort of RedCine plugin you apply to the clips (would also be welcome if this parameters could be animated using keyframes).
Click to expand...

with cineforms active metadata this is a reality right now...except native r3d.
even though it is not raw, none of the color information is baked in....so other then not being debayered, it still has all the power of raw.
make color corrections with no rendering, just export the LOOK file and apply it to your video...the origional is not altered...only metadata. this metadata then carries through to all video applications...it does not have to be baked in or flattened.
Now if Red will open up Raw in the SDK to cineform...then we will get the same benefits just with about 1/2 the file size.

even though it is not raw, with cineforms active metadata scheme it is to date the best workflow going....except scratch
 
studiodrome said:
... editing off of the 2k quicktimes is a dream come true for my team.
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Are you editing off line at 2K and then back to 4K or the whole project is at 2K?
I am not familiar with this so I am trying to understand.
 
omen said:
It was my understanding that Red waited because of:
1. honoring the deal with their first partners
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That deal with the Devil has not done Red any favours

mariusznyc said:
How much you rent your Red camera for if it is cheaper than HVX???
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The production company rented a full HVX package for over $1,500

Over and over again Post is the Red deal breaker for productions. I am a big Red Fan Boy but that stops dead when the project moves to post.
 
I am missing something here???
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adobe is coming...within weeks
apple???
i think 4k raw in FC is wishful thingking right now

apple already has a workflow...but does not edit the native raw, or in 4k
basically an offline edit with a conform, and recommended finish in scratch
so a mac and a pc

adobe will be the real deal...one r3d file from start to finish.
 
You know, I think that Red's plan beyond releasing an SDK is...nothing. I think they are depending on the marketplace to develop the workflow.
 
just export the LOOK file and apply it to your video
Click to expand...

I've read about the procedure... It seems practical to you?
I don't know anything about software engineering but why you can't directly act on the metadata parameters instead of using look file to drive new imputs to the metadata?
 
I think Finner is talking about Red's lack to collaborate well with current workflows that are common in commercial land. I've be through this many times and heartly understand what Finner means. For most producers there is no advantage to shoot with red over 35mm other than a happy director (me).

For archival, versioning etc... posthouses need a bullet proved workflow. This has been the 35mm/Telecine/DigiBeta/Avid/Quantel/FFF workflow and now is the 35mm/Telecine/HDCAMSR/Avid/Quantel/FFF workflow for those who want 1080p.

To make Red working in this environment we need a fast RedRAW-telecine with RT dumping on SR/DigiBeta: Red/Telecine/HDCAMSR/Avid/Quantel/FFF

Currently only Scratch is able to do this (4K half debayer only). Others will chime in, SpeedGrade for instance in the mid-level and the big ones like Filmlight's Baselight or Nukoda's Filmmaster will embrace R3D sooner or later as well.

I know that many will say hold your breath Adobe is going to fix it or FCP will have a great workflow soon. That's fine for indies and all of us who do their post by themselfs. Posthouses which serve international advertising agencies and globally operating companies have different needs. Their goal is secure delivery. For that and the countless versions that emerge from a single day shoot archiving is key: Here tape excells.

LTO is great for Archiving R3D data, but for proxiy editing and conforming the classic video tape is still the easiest way, at least when we talk about short form productions such as commercials.

My bet: Until the already existing DI-suites are not upgraded to native RT R3D Red won't make 35mm to resingn in commercial land.

Hans
 
Reactor88 said:
RED ONE should drop into any HDCAM SR post work flow. Now that you can play back the slightly cropped 4K at 1080P via Dual HD-SDI's. Please correct me if I am wrong here.
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Yes and no, you lose the ability to link back to the RAW media files in that workflow. Although it could be possible if timecode is carried over the HD-SDI and you are careful with reel names and the like.
 
As I have said in an old post...

REDONE is a two piece camera, the one part is the machine and the other is the debayering software.

Since .3RD its handled today (effectively-flawlessly-in very high quality) from Scratch, then its a camera tender to Scratch, or better REDONE should be called ScratchONE...

And the cost of the camera is 140K$ + 17.5K$ = 157.500,00$ ...!
 
Sycophant said:
Yes and no, you lose the ability to link back to the RAW media files in that workflow. Although it could be possible if timecode is carried over the HD-SDI and you are careful with reel names and the like.
Click to expand...

In a HDCAMSR workflow the R3D files are just the RAW-negative from which you create a postive that you dump on the SR. The TC of the R3D becomes obsolete, the tape is now your master on which the workflow is based upon. The only downside is that TC-sync. devices such as a sound recorder are not in sync. anymore. A clapperboard as with 35mm is needed.

Actually I'm not theorising here. We've been through this a couple of times. Because we had no RT debayer tool we had to render all shots (ages...). Later we brought them on a timeline (FCP in this case) and dumped the whole lot on the SR from where it got ingested into Avid and so forth.

Because of the redicolous render times Red's standing is not the best, to say the least...

The SR workflow has the advantage that making copies for archival or moving a whole project to another posthouse is much easier. And most important: people feel more comfortable and if they are in their comfort-zone they do better work.

Personally, I would like to see posthouse more open-minded towards new technology but I can understand their needs.


Hans
 
One more point: People want to do their work and don't want to read all day reduser to get to know what the latest developements are and in which current state Red's software is.

The last time I went to my posthouse I'm working with (only commercials, other stuff I do at my home-based laboratory) they didn't even know that RedRushes is out. They don't care about Red, reduser and frankly, the world is bigger than that. Until their current workflow is not R3D capable they advise to shoot 35mm, or when budget is too low F900R. Does fine pictures, doesn't it?

I don't blame them. The only one to blame are Red who brought a camera into the market that was/is in certain applications not primetime ready. But if they had waited all the fun we now have... Anyway, here we are.

I love my Red, I love shooting with it and since I'm directing the stuff and have my own lab I can patch things up.

For others not an option.

Hans
 
Evangelos Achillopoulos said:
As I have said in an old post...

REDONE is a two piece camera, the one part is the machine and the other is the debayering software.

Since .3RD its handled today (effectively-flawlessly-in very high quality) from Scratch, then its a camera tender to Scratch, or better REDONE should be called ScratchONE...

And the cost of the camera is 140K$ + 17.5K$ = 157.500,00$ ...!
Click to expand...

I do disagree with you in this regard. Yes you do need Scratch or something similar but saying that each camera needs a whole backend means that every 35mm camera needs a whole lab which obvoiusly is not the case. Fact is that there is a new aquisition format on the matket, namely RAW.

Red is not the only camera that utilises RAW, there are others such as Phantom, Dalsa, Arri, SI2K. They all have the same problem when we talk about RAW: akward integration in current workflows.

Next NAB we will see many solutions in this regard. SpeedGrade for instance can read all of them except Red (only in a build 15 experimental mode). When Red's SDK is out of alpha and half a year developement is invested things will work. Next summer I guess.


Hans
 
Hans von Sonntag said:
In a HDCAMSR workflow the R3D files are just the RAW-negative from which you create a postive that you dump on the SR. The TC of the R3D becomes obsolete, the tape is now your master on which the workflow is based upon. The only downside is that TC-sync. devices such as a sound recorder are not in sync. anymore. A clapperboard as with 35mm is needed.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but in a 35mm workflow you might scan to SR but track edgecode so that you can later matchback to the original negative for a high-res DI conform or final negative grade.

By making a tape which has no remaining link to the 'negative' you are essentially throwing out the potential benefits of the RED RAW format.

Of course for many jobs that may be just fine. Ideally in that circumstance you'd have only one SR master per RED 'reel' and jamsync the TC to either the TOD or Edgecode (once it's available over HD-SDI). Assuming you have no duplicate reels you'd then be able to go back to your RED source files fairly easily.
 
For many, I could sound like a "another video guy" but am one of the pioneers in the tape less work flows, back in 2001 in IBC hall7 I was having 100sqm booth showing an onset direct to disk recording and editing system, my company was Eagle Research. Soon I realized that this idea was premature, since then I tried a lot of different things one of them it will be this year in IBC at booth 12E.E10 called Livecut... As I run a rental service in Athens since 2004 am renting a Varicam. Many will say OK so what... Varicam has a unique problem that most of the other HD cameras don't... The problem is very similar to the RED work flow problem... Varicam when record in off speed frame rates the tapes can't be used as in a typical tape work flow... So the typical nervous producer syndrome is what I'm facing all the time... What I did to workaround it, is that I created a data centric work flow that included a render proxy in DV quicklime handed to client in a small USB drive, edit in clients AVID, send back an EDL conform in original files and send back DPX for finishing... the work flow tested first time three years ago... Three years after I realized that, and by loosing jobs over F900 (just like Finner did with HVX) that was working on tapes only I forced to buy an Aj-HPM110 P2 mobile that solve the problem...

So as a tapeless/datacentric evangelist I realized that if a camera doesn't offer a VTR style operation its almost useless for these guys... If I was Jim I would push the RED RAY to have an operation like VTR (RS422 HDSDI i/o etc) combined with a REDCine debayering integrated directly in the RED RAY in hardware. In this way there will be a quick and high quality "tape" alternative for RED...
 
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