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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Producer decides to pay more for a HVX rental over a Red

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Finner

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Aggggggggh

Red post is a nightmare that does not seem to end.

I have become use to producers passing over my camera for 35mm, 16mm, sony 900 and panasonic HD cameras even though I rent the complete red package with full arri and cooke accessories for less then all of them. What bugs me though is this week the camera was considered as a B camera on a commercial with a panasonic varicam being the A camera but the red was passed over for a HVX instead. Even though the HVX package was more expensive for the day it was picked because of Red post issues.

Someone please fix this post mess already.

Rant over!
 
Why don't you go with Cineform? It seems easy...
 
it's a post mess if you let be one.

education from all of us about workflows will be the only answer.

i feel your pain, but i am fortunate to have my producer as my business partner so the battles are a little easier......sometimes.

maybe a "show and tell" night in a suit with some timelines and workflow info to a bunch of producers you are working with might ease the problem.

oh yeah - get 'em liquored up too.....then you sell them anything....:whistling:
 
I hear ya, I think the poor guys at RED under estimated the issues of releasing a camera with no post solutions off the start line ;(
 
Don King said:
Why don't you go with Cineform? It seems easy...
Click to expand...

Because he's not editing it. He can't tell the editor to change platforms.

Finner, I am guessing it didn't make sense for you to say
"Hey, I'll transcode everything to DVCPROHD for you guys"

(time constraints or too much labor for too little money)?

EDIT: oh, and give me a call if I can help you sell them on Red next time. You've helped us all out a ton with various equipment stuff and made us chuckle with the Hoffness. Let's get your camera rented out more. What were they editing on, BTW?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
The cost of having a device ahead of "time" is waiting the "time" to catch up.

I think Red guys can only do so much. They did their task and raised the bar.
Now it's up to the other software and hardware "guys". More like software. Hardware already chews teraflops.

I have a feeling it won't be long, though.
 
omen said:
The cost of having a device ahead of "time" is waiting the "time" to catch up.

I think Red guys can only do so much. They did their task and raised the bar.
Now it's up to the other software and hardware "guys". More like software. Hardware already chews teraflops.

I have a feeling it won't be long, though.
Click to expand...

It'd be here already if Red had decided to send Avid, discreet, Quantel, etc a description of their file format.

It is very unusual and weird to release a new product like this but not to give proper information to the post production software companies.

Their explanation was that they'd give out a SDK. But is the SDK even useful yet? Is it fast? Does it gives access to RAW data, etc?

It'd be okay if Red allowed companies to hack stuff and figure it out on their own, but you saw how pissed they got when Cineform tried that.

RedCine is to this day still broken with Avid (cannot export DNxHD). And workflow with other editors sucks because it can't import EDLs yet.

I like the workflow Avid is trying to put into place but it could have been here 6 months ago if Red were cooperative.

When the major players are all allowed to support Red, or if Apple delivers on the promises it made *LAST NAB* then peoples' rentals will pick up.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
two major ways i experience...

1. client wants all footage in full debayered UC QT or Pro Res
2. all footy transcoded to DPX and SD

fee for telecine is between 2000-3000 dollars for 200 minutes of footage.

and redcine and full debayered Pro Res sucks.
We used two exactly configured machines....from hardware to software.

the one had frozen frame issues, the second not....
-------------------------

i am talking about other workflows, but this is what they want.
Producers use red over 35 mm because they dont have to buy negs and they really like the LOOK !!!

Because of the workflow....a lot of the old hvx users still keep it, because the redpost is too expensive for them.

or they just use the proxies...what should i say...there is crimson (my favorite), there is scratch...

but clients reaction are often:

looks awesome...so lets make a telecine so it fits to our pipelines.
There is the money/hardware/diskspace doesnt matter client and the "smaller" indy clients who dont have the resources or money for the best pipeline.
 
two major things would ease things a lot.

1. (dream)
native raw editing in all 3 NLEs (premiere sounds really promising but highly paid editors dont use it that much here in Germany.)

2. rocksolid exports for avid and fcp (full debayered) in Redcine
3. EDL for redcine....we know will never happen, but what about Redrushes?
 
There are a lot of problems inherent in any new technology, and this is most (to me) like when NLEs first launched and some of us found a job as conformers, either writing keycode by hand from bad digitizations and conforming on editing benches or conforming onlines with wonky translations of transitions between one NLE (think EMC, adobe, Avid, media 100 and the precursor to *edit) and a roomfull of BetaSP decks. The only reason many people used these difficult workflows was that budget dictated it, or us post guys committed to seeing it through for them and they (who knows why) trusted us. It should be the same with Red, but the post guys need to step up like Crimson and lend a hand, even though Red may not have done everything the best way. It may suck now for the camera owner/ops, but there is a coming wave of smaller places where we know how to get it to work and we just all need to connect in a more meaningful way. It would help if there was a "sizzle reel" to demo for the naif producer how much money they will save and how much better their product will be and how they are making an asset that can be leveraged beyond today, etc, etc. Maybe if we could suggest to Red that they make that for us - like a full flow mythbusters with more sex appeal (sorry Tim) - and have Peter and Steven saying nice things and more articles in ASC and such. Producers are like pilots, either old or bold but not often both... Plaster City put their name out, where are the rest of the Red-friendly places? Are they on google? Someday, but you guys need something sooner so you can shoot more, yes?
 
I had one situation where a larger deal was almost closed after presenting the picture quality, but after the clients saw the transcoding times and tried to catch up on my workflow explanations, they just decided to go with F900, since they edit their own stuff, and know the prior workflow well.


Bruce Allen said:
It'd be here already if Red had decided to send Avid, discreet, Quantel, etc a description of their file format.

It is very unusual and weird to release a new product like this but not to give proper information to the post production software companies.

Their explanation was that they'd give out a SDK. But is the SDK even useful yet? Is it fast? Does it gives access to RAW data, etc?

It'd be okay if Red allowed companies to hack stuff and figure it out on their own, but you saw how pissed they got when Cineform tried that.

RedCine is to this day still broken with Avid (cannot export DNxHD). And workflow with other editors sucks because it can't import EDLs yet.

I like the workflow Avid is trying to put into place but it could have been here 6 months ago if Red were cooperative.

When the major players are all allowed to support Red, or if Apple delivers on the promises it made *LAST NAB* then peoples' rentals will pick up.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
Click to expand...


It was my understanding that Red waited because of:
1. honoring the deal with their first partners
2. the wait to release B16 before they could release SDK

If the file format was constantly changing and the last release was a major change than to me it makes sense. I agree this seems unusual, but the whole Red thing is pretty unusual. I doubt that RED deliberately did anything to slow down the whole process, since it is in RED's own interest that more users can actually use the footage.

What bothers me is that Apple didn't do squat since they bragged about Redcode at the release of FCS2, and they had an exclusive deal. They could have used this exclusive to much greater extent. This is poor management. While Red was being honorable Apple was concentrating on the sexy phone.
 
I feel for you Finner! So, that leads me to kind of a funny thought

Red just beat out F23/F900R on a project we're going to be working on so, using the transative property (I think that's what it's called)

a=Red
b=F23/F900R
c=HVX200

if c>a and a>b then c>b. Now that is really messed up.

I can see a little bit where they are coming from, the hvx200 looks a lot like varicam footage, oversharpened, low resolution, 720p :)
 
Thankfully I haven't had to convince many on the virtues of shooting RED... I'm handling all the post work for most of what I shoot.

But for the few that have wanted me to hand over footage, it's ended with different results each time. I've had a couple take the R3D files and QT proxies only to complain about the proxy quality or they can't understand why the proxies look so dark or color is off, etc.. Some don't want my help to "develop" the RAW footage, yet they can't figure it out on their own. Others have called me back and are happy to have me walk them through it. Then some have requested I transfer it all to ProRes, others to DPX, etc.. A few of them whine about the transcode times, which I warn them about up-front, but it's a trade off. I tell them, if they want instant gratification of taking usable footage that can be dropped into their NLE with them, they had better shoot with the HVX, Varicam, F900, etc.. Or be prepared to edit with the proxies.

I agree with Finner most of the time, but I don't share his opinion of RED post being a nightmare. Yes, it's still a work-in-progress, but I find it easier to work with than trying to push usable 24fps 720p through a post pipeline for the first several months I had my HVX200, upon its release.

When it comes to post workflows, people fear what they don't understand. All we can do is educate. So far, the clients I've encountered who have the biggest issues with RED post are those who already have significant investments in other workflow hardware like HDCAM decks, which RED is essentially rendering obsolete. Most clients who are serious about using RED for the gains in image quality over an HVX / Varicam / etc.. are willing to put in the little extra effort and time to find an acceptable workflow that fits them. If it's not worth the effort to them and they would rather shoot on an HVX, thus getting a product that looks like it was shot on an HVX, then that's their choice. The client is always right, even when they're wrong, and who am I to argue with them? Why should I anyway... I'm going to bill them the same amount in the end whether I shoot on RED or the HVX. HVX is fine with me, I don't have to work as hard or carry as much gear.
 
crazy....

PR campaign needed, a lot of misconceptions about Red.
At NAB I had people tell me that you had to have proprietary lenses for the Red....all sorts of rumours.

Best workflow as of right now is cineform....but the post house has to already own it, most of the other broadcast level production companies are in the dark as to what to do with the footage, so naturally they go with what they know works
 
Give it time! As I see it, for any small software developer to work out these issues, it would be very risky to break even on the development effort. As the user base grows, and with lower cost cameras such as Scarlet, it becomes less risky to develop for the Red platform. It just takes time.
 
RED post is the best thing that has ever happened to my workflow. I'm saving so much time and money and it makes me love RED that much more.

My company switched from AVID to Final Cut Pro years ago and I have never looked back.

Still working with 35mm and super16 but I just saved big time on filmstock and telecine by shooting on RED. drag and drop files to a few hard drives and I have 3 back-ups of the days shoot in a couple of hours.

It seems the people having the hardest times are the ones who don't want to adapt there workflow's. editing off of the 2k quicktimes is a dream come true for my team.
 
Don King said:
Why don't you go with Cineform? It seems easy...
Click to expand...

People want to post in THEIR workflow. The second you start trying to teach someone how do a new workflow is the same second you're starting to lose the sale.

But an HVX over a RED? OMG. That's a crime. I saw a bunch of varicam footage a couple weeks ago and it really doesn't hold a candle to RED - but it goes to show you image quality isn't everything on a lot of productions.
 
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