PRO REZ OPTIONS and CONCERNS for EPIC

[shashbugu]

I wouldn't call the ALexa necessarily "High End" compared to RED 1. It's body rents for about 300 more. So alot of mid level clients find that it's worth the extra 300 over transcoding time/fees. It's also dropped a few price notches in the last few months as every rental house is stocking up. Not kidding about the 30 bodies at CSC and 20 on order.

Prores to Arri is a Proxy codec. They want you to record raw, That makes it a highend camera.

 

[Jonathan Carbonaro]

I'm a little confused.
I work as a DIT onset, and I don't charge any more money to work with Alexa, vs. Red footage. At the end of the day, I deliver Colored, Transcoded footage In any Format that is available. And 99% of the time, I am leaving set before most people have finished filling out their time cards.
So what are the extra "Fee's" and "Time" that is required of a Red Shoot that is not required of an Alexa Shoot?
In fact, If the post house for an Alexa shoot is using Avid, more often than not, they want the transcodes set for DnxHD, which then takes much longer to transcode than it does to create those same files from Red footage using the Red Rocket card in my tower...

So again, I'm a bit confused why it's so difficult to Post Red footage, and why it takes so long, when you're getting the exact same thing from me at the end of every day weather you shot it on Red or Alexa??

It sounds good on paper to have Pro-res straight out of the camera. But it's not that simple. IMHO, I can see it making more sense for the Indi, low-budget stuff that can deal with grading a Burnt in Image, as opposed to a professional decent budget commercial or film that actually cares what it looks like in the end.....

 

[Paul Hazlett]

I just did a five day Job for a Company EVERYONE knows and because of the quick turn around they wanted ProRes files. No problem I said.

I brought my Rocket tower out with me and was able to hand them BOTH raw files and ProRes at the end of the day.

This was not possible just a little while ago but thanks to the big brains and hard work from the folks at RED it was easy.

The days of slow transcodes are over as far as I am concerned.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Not to hijack the thread but the real upgrade recently has been the Red Station platform to speed cloning of the camera original data. In most cases I find making multiple copies of the r3ds onto a plethora of firewire drives is a far bigger time issue than the transcode step, particularly if the catch drive supports eSATA. Just sayin'

Cheers - #19

 

[Jonathan Carbonaro]

Not to hijack the thread but the real upgrade recently has been the Red Station platform to speed cloning of the camera original data. In most cases I find making multiple copies of the r3ds onto a plethora of firewire drives is a far bigger time issue than the transcode step, particularly if the catch drive supports eSATA. Just sayin'

Cheers - #19

Completely agree!

 

[Dylan Macleod CSC]

The Alexa jobs I have been doing (medium budget commercial jobs) have involved color timing LOG-C files with a look to deliver dailies with a look and the master Log-C files to link back to. No different than the Red workflow I have used.

Alexa can be upgraded to do "dual" recording - REC709 and Log-C simaultaneously. But it only does REC709 (AFAIK). So unless you are happy with REC709 as your dailies and have the upgrade on the Alexa - you are going through the same process with both cameras?

 

[Eric Haase]

The Alexa jobs I have been doing (medium budget commercial jobs) have involved color timing LOG-C files with a look to deliver dailies with a look and the master Log-C files to link back to. No different than the Red workflow I have used.

Alexa can be upgraded to do "dual" recording - REC709 and Log-C simaultaneously. But it only does REC709 (AFAIK). So unless you are happy with REC709 as your dailies and have the upgrade on the Alexa - you are going through the same process with both cameras?

Yes it's a similar process. The other option is to record LogC and make a quick fcp or avid lut that adds contrast and let the editor apply it for offline cuts. (scary I know). Then they can pull the effect off for the conform and grade from LogC files. If the client understands the implications of this regarding what the dailies will look like it can be an ok solution for SOME jobs. But the bigger issue is the avid one and having to transcode to dnx. Even 4:4:4:4 prores does not play nice on some fcp systems.

 

[Nuka Wølk]

In Red's defense, the indie filmmaker or commercial producer should be able to have the best quality image/codec they can. Don't chase Red to dumb down their camera to work on outdated an NLE. This is backward thinking. Why would Red want to compete with Arri? Red has the better quality camera with 10 times the market share. Remember the Red is tradable for an Epic-x. The Red-mx is currently problem free. The Arri.... Just go to an Alexa shoot or stop by their forum. Like I said it is the camera of the moment, what happens when NLE's catch up to R3D or users realize Adobe ppro has edited R3D's natively for 3 yrs now. The new CS5.5 was just demoed live online today, R3D playback is on steroids.

Hi Shashbogu.

First of all, I'm am in no way "attacking" RED for what they are doing - I actually agree with almost everything you say. I love RED and long live R3D!

I'm suggesting that if specifically the SCARLET offered ProRes recording (as a feature!), then it would solve a lot of issues for some people. I don't see why this would "dumb" down anything RED does, as they already offer the best picture image codec of everyone out there. And why should they not compete with ARRI...?? As it looks now from other statements around the forum, ALEXA apparently is getting chosen over the RED because it offers them ProRes (and perhaps that's just silly in some peoples eyes, but ignoring a certain costumer demand would also be silly). If it would be an easily solvable issue for RED, then why not do it? The ProRes issue is for certain demanded workflows and not something you'd be shooting all the time - why would you if you could shoot RED RAW?!! I'm just saying that offering the ProRes solution would automatically win them back a chunk of their clientele.

This is not an idealistic thought, just a smart one the way I see it - and not "backwards" thinking. Not doing it for pure passionate idealistic reasons - is something I could never understand.

 

[James Brundige]

I'm a little confused.
I work as a DIT onset, and I don't charge any more money to work with Alexa, vs. Red footage. At the end of the day, I deliver Colored, Transcoded footage In any Format that is available. And 99% of the time, I am leaving set before most people have finished filling out their time cards.
So what are the extra "Fee's" and "Time" that is required of a Red Shoot that is not required of an Alexa Shoot?
In fact, If the post house for an Alexa shoot is using Avid, more often than not, they want the transcodes set for DnxHD, which then takes much longer to transcode than it does to create those same files from Red footage using the Red Rocket card in my tower...

So again, I'm a bit confused why it's so difficult to Post Red footage, and why it takes so long, when you're getting the exact same thing from me at the end of every day weather you shot it on Red or Alexa??

It sounds good on paper to have Pro-res straight out of the camera. But it's not that simple. IMHO, I can see it making more sense for the Indi, low-budget stuff that can deal with grading a Burnt in Image, as opposed to a professional decent budget commercial or film that actually cares what it looks like in the end.....

Good point, but many budget shoots don't have DIT's.

Over the years I did a lot of news magazine (60 mins etc.) shoots, and it went like this: 1-3 person crew shows up, shoots, hands tape to producer, goes away. Producer goes back to HQ with tape for edit. Now there's an extra step of copying the media. Without a portable rocket, transcoding can be difficult and slow, which is why I've been suggesting a prores or DNX module for Epic. Sure RAW is better, but a good shooter can get a look close enough for an RGB grade.

I'm pleased to learn about the AJA option. Maybe third parties will fill this need. It just won't be quite as cool and integrated as a red solution. I'm sure this has been a boost to Alexa - the perception that it shoots a format that's ready to go.

Red is making great steps in the film world, but could do a lot more in the ENG segment of our industry. It's not as cool as features, but there's a lot of work there. The other thing that would really help ENG folks is an easier audio section on the pro I/O. Meters and pots, not another bloody menu. Sound needs to look at the side of the cam, make adjustments, and get out of the way. If things are happening quickly, sound needs to be able to glance at the camera a make sure levels are tolerable without stopping the shoot to calibrate.

 

[CK Olsen]

CK, will APS work on a 17" MBP late 2010 model, 8 gig Ram? It'd be nice to be able to use it on set and leave the tower at home.

Yup... Absolutely. I'm not saying that a MBP will run anywhere near as fast as as your Mac tower, but all our MBP stations (young and old) have the Adobe Production Suite on them, and its a lifesaver on set. However, as our pipeline is completely built around using the source media files (like R3D), we have the luxury of going straight from set into edit without missing a beat. If we need to hand off ProRes or other converted files, we will add a "widget" into the mix like the ones discussed above. I personally like AJA's line of products, like the Ki-Pro, or even better, the IO Express working out of an on set MBP, as I can capture ProRes in realtime IN ADDITION TO my R3Ds. And with the IO Express, I can create client friendly "take" bins, do full multi shot playback, test quick one lights, and even perform rough edits immediately after each take. We will still edit off the R3Ds 99.7% of the time for finals... but if a Client wants to leave set with a baked file instead of, or in addition to, the R3Ds, this is a great solution.

 

[Jonathan Carbonaro]

Good point, but many budget shoots don't have DIT's.

Over the years I did a lot of news magazine (60 mins etc.) shoots, and it went like this: 1-3 person crew shows up, shoots, hands tape to producer, goes away. Producer goes back to HQ with tape for edit. Now there's an extra step of copying the media. Without a portable rocket, transcoding can be difficult and slow, which is why I've been suggesting a prores or DNX module for Epic. Sure RAW is better, but a good shooter can get a look close enough for an RGB grade.

True.
I guess I'm just thinking that with Red, you get a Red rocket if you want it to happen quickly. Just like with a tape workflow, you buy a $20K-$100K Deck, and ingest the footage.
And with Alexa, you buy a QIO (which there needs to be a better solution) and then you hope the Post facility is using FCP, or you've just really waisted extra time using Alexa.
Now there's the option to shoot Raw with Alexa as well, although then the workflow still comes back to transcoding and re-linking for final grade and the time is spent either way.

However, I still tend to think that people overhype this as a problem with Red. Right now, you're spending more to rent an alexa Body, so you should've just hired a DIT and handled the Red footage professionally. The image looks better in the end anyway
But I also agree with you. I would love to see a proRes module (which has already been teased about) for those applications where someone really wants that run n gun ability.

 

[Ash Worth]

The more options the better. The new Atomos recorders look decent. Looking forward the Scarlet / Indie crowd will need more diverse options as they won't have the production or post support for such large file sizes. RED RAW has very little competition currently but that will change as CinemaDNG becomes the format for all RAW files...

 

[Tom.Wong]

Honestly, a really basic way to create instant dailies, with any camera is just to tap into the SDI and use a external recorder nowadays. easier and cheaper than ever. stuff like ki mini, samurai, pix 240, sidekick, etc. etc. you just hook up the recorder, and leave it somewhere, and everytime you hit record the TC will trigger the recorder. you don't really even have to do anything except spot check and offload. Buddies of mine do this with Alexa all the time, recording arriraw, and creating LUT baked into dailies with ki pro mini.

not so suitable with R1 since it's only 720p out, so the rocket is more of a solution. but with epic with a full 1080 out, it's gonna be just as easy, and a lot of productions can't afford or have the space for a full tower setup on set. especially more indie budget productions. sometimes just trying to find space to set up your macbook pro can be hard.

 

[Ned Wilson]

Yup... Absolutely. I'm not saying that a MBP will run anywhere near as fast as as your Mac tower, but all our MBP stations (young and old) have the Adobe Production Suite on them, and its a lifesaver on set. However, as our pipeline is completely built around using the source media files (like R3D), we have the luxury of going straight from set into edit without missing a beat. If we need to hand off ProRes or other converted files, we will add a "widget" into the mix like the ones discussed above. I personally like AJA's line of products, like the Ki-Pro, or even better, the IO Express working out of an on set MBP, as I can capture ProRes in realtime IN ADDITION TO my R3Ds. And with the IO Express, I can create client friendly "take" bins, do full multi shot playback, test quick one lights, and even perform rough edits immediately after each take. We will still edit off the R3Ds 99.7% of the time for finals... but if a Client wants to leave set with a baked file instead of, or in addition to, the R3Ds, this is a great solution.

Thanks for the good advice. I think I may take the Adobe plunge for my own work until FCP X ships. Unfortunately, not too sure how clients are willing to.

 

[Ned Wilson]

With larger on board drive space coming down the pipe, I see the day coming soon, where a data manager isn't necessary. Your second AC just starts the back up and comes back to set or better yet, just hands off one or two digital mags to editorial during the shoot or at the end of the day. Not that I have anything against a DIT, but if the position becomes redundant as transcoding and multiple back ups aren't needed, it'd be great to put that savings to other items on screen. The DIT has essentially taken the place of the loader. If you have only one or two "mag changes" a day and no transcoding, all you're left with is verification, which I could see Producers pawning off to editorial or widen playback's responsibilities. Also, with gear getting smaller and more and more AC's pulling focus off the monitor, this frees up the 2nd for download duties. On a union show, since we have to hire a playback guy anyway, I see this perhaps being the first place this happens.

Now please DIT's, don't roast me just yet. I love the utility of a DIT with the current work flow. But I definitely see pressure from Producers coming down the pipe. Social Network went sans DIT. We currently already started training our current DIT to AC and operate. Also, as more Producers/Directors become savvy about RAW, the need to show adjusted dailies on set become less necessary.

I know this diverges a bit from my original post but this thread has got me thinking about all this stuff. Small camera, big storage, no transcode, something's going to give and for the love of all the DIT's that have made my life much easier in the last few years, I'd hate to see them caught with their pants down.

 

[Jonathan Carbonaro]

With larger on board drive space coming down the pipe, I see the day coming soon, where a data manager isn't necessary. Your second AC just starts the back up and comes back to set or better yet, just hands off one or two digital mags to editorial during the shoot or at the end of the day. Not that I have anything against a DIT, but if the position becomes redundant as transcoding and multiple back ups aren't needed, it'd be great to put that savings to other items on screen. The DIT has essentially taken the place of the loader. If you have only one or two "mag changes" a day and no transcoding, all you're left with is verification, which I could see Producers pawning off to editorial or widen playback's responsibilities. Also, with gear getting smaller and more and more AC's pulling focus off the monitor, this frees up the 2nd for download duties. On a union show, since we have to hire a playback guy anyway, I see this perhaps being the first place this happens.

Now please DIT's, don't roast me just yet. I love the utility of a DIT with the current work flow. But I definitely see pressure from Producers coming down the pipe. Social Network went sans DIT. We currently already started training our current DIT to AC and operate. Also, as more Producers/Directors become savvy about RAW, the need to show adjusted dailies on set become less necessary.

I know this diverges a bit from my original post but this thread has got me thinking about all this stuff. Small camera, big storage, no transcode, something's going to give and for the love of all the DIT's that have made my life much easier in the last few years, I'd hate to see them caught with their pants down.

I'm going to have to disagree.
The larger files and data rates that these cameras are pushing out, just means there is that much more of a reason to be sure the quality is there before it leaves set.
Sure, video assist can show you the shot, But that does not represent the recorded Media whatsoever. And I for one do not trust my 2nd AC to download, scrub, proof, Checksum, backup, checksum again, verify that what we thought we shot we actually shot, and then work with the DP to be sure his Creative vision is transferred off in a CDL, or 1st light Transcode or both.

As much as I love how easy it is to shoot on these cameras, I can't tell you how many time I have Saved a shot, because I knew what to look for. Or an Error in the media because of some type of error (user or otherwise) that came through as 1 bad frame in the middle of the take.
Or how about when the media was ejected wrong because we were running on AC power and had a surge so the whole drive was unreadable and I had to wipe and use red undead and then sit with the DP to verify footage.
Or that time we shot green screen and I went ahead and ran it through after effects on set (Just because something looked funny) and found out there was a problem that would have ruined the entire day had we not caught it.

I just don't trust anyone but a qualified DIT to run that footage before I mail it off to editorial.

There's still the DIT's primary role of onset grading. The DP's I work with Love having someone close to check shots, see how much they can push a look, and really get their creative vision processed before they sign off that they have what they want. And in my experience, the producers really love this as well!

Another thought. You wouldn't have a 2nd AC take the place of your film loader would you? I wouldn't. Because I don't trust anyone but a Loader to know that job backwards and forwards.
Same with handling media onset. I just don't personally trust anyone but a DIT to properly handle the media. (and this comes not only from experience losing footage, or sending off footage to Post that looks like A$$, but also from the countless phone calls I receive from people on location needing advice because their "Media Manager" they have has lost or ruined something)

As far as corrected Dailies, sure, as more producers have knowledge about "raw" they may understand the stale look they see in uncorrected dailies. But that doesn't mean that they don't want to see the vision everyone is working so hard to create, right there in their hand each day. I mean, with all do respect, I would rather see what the DP is thinking as far as his vision rather than just "Know" that anything is possible.

Now, I still do agree that because everyone has there own way, it's still very probably that the DIT's days may be numbered. At least for certain productions. And I appreciate seeing both sides of this! I for one do not want to be caught with my pants down either. (in most situations at least
But I do still believe that if handled properly, by a qualified DIT, you are getting SO much more onset for your money, than if you just had a 2nd AC, and possibly a media manager run with it. My 2c

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Thanks for the good advice. I think I may take the Adobe plunge for my own work until FCP X ships. Unfortunately, not too sure how clients are willing to.

In my own experience, most are willing once they see it in action. Some still won't as they are so FCP-OR-DIE minded that it's a bit disconcerting. The biggest issue most editors have in switching is they think they have to learn new software. However, any decent editor familiar with FCP will feel right at home in Premiere. They're so similar, almost identical at times, the transition period shouldn't last more than a day or so, one small project and you should feel right at home. You can use all the FCP (or Avid) keys too. All in the settings.

With larger on board drive space coming down the pipe, I see the day coming soon, where a data manager isn't necessary. Your second AC just starts the back up and comes back to set or better yet, just hands off one or two digital mags to editorial during the shoot or at the end of the day. Not that I have anything against a DIT, but if the position becomes redundant as transcoding and multiple back ups aren't needed, it'd be great to put that savings to other items on screen. The DIT has essentially taken the place of the loader.

In terms of data management, sure. Many of my own one or two-man productions work without offloading. Many times we're in the field where offloading could be a potential hazard. With larger and more manageable SSD media, the need for immediate offload and data management becomes less. As for "DIT", that depends on what you feel the role of a "DIT" is... For many, they are primarily a loader and data manager. In that context the position of DIT has a visibly finite lifespan. However, as an imaging technician, the DIT is here to stay. Digital workflows that allow for immediate image analysis make it possible for productions to have a Digitial Imaging Technician on-set to inspect and validate the imagery as it comes in. The expense of that person could be invaluable and far better than simply shooting everything and dealing with it later -- only to find that something needs to be re-shot or someone wishes part of a scene was lit differently or there's too much noise in another shot, etc.. To me, one of the key tasks of a true "DIT" is to communicate directly with the DP, director and camera crew to let them know how the images are doing, let them know if they are getting the most ideal image from the camera or if there is something they need to be aware of.

Shooting whatever, getting your images into the can, and then sorting it out later is the way it's been done for over 100 years. It was really only the advent of inferior quality video cameras that offered an alternative to this approach. Now we can instantly review and analyze full-quality cinema footage right on set. It can be an invaluable tool. To me, that is what a true "DIT" is. If you're just a media jockey or data wrangler, that's fine too... But you're not a "DIT", you're a digital loader or data due, file monkey, etc... That can be a valuable position too and not necessarily the same thing.

 

[Stephen Williams]

I just don't trust anyone but a qualified DIT to run that footage before I mail it off to editorial.

Sounds great, but how do you define 'qualified DIT'

 

[Jonathan Carbonaro]

Sounds great, but how do you define 'qualified DIT'

I think as Jeff so eloquently put, it's important to understand the difference in a Data manager, or Digital Loader, and an Imaging Technician.
Which I failed to do in my post. And that is important.
There are many duties of managing media, that a DIT, Myself included, end up doing onset because production doesn't want to get a media manager, or loader to assist with.
Honestly, a Digital Imaging Technician is just that. Anything that adjusts to "look", or Image in any way, is the Job of a DIT.
How do I define someone who is qualified? I think this is a loaded question.
How do you Define a Qualified DP? Everyone is going to have their own level of satisfaction when it comes to hiring someone to work on their production.
The thing I was trying to establish is that there is a reason that everyone has their own job classification.
When you start asking someone to do something that they do not have the most experience in. ie, having a 2nd AC taking the place of a Loader or an imaging technician, you are asking for problems.

I am just suggesting that if you want things to run smoothly, you hire the right person for each job.

And thanks Jeff for pointing out the different job classifications in regards to onset media. I tend to ramble and forget some key points that should be addressed first

 

[Kevin Rasmussen]

Prores should be an option in every RED model, not just epic.

I thought I'd search this topic as I sit here starting to process footage from Red Cine to pro-res. It's not about data management at all, or whether people are too invested in FCP or any of the other arguments made here.
Here's some real talk. I work in Toronto and here, right now, this is what it's about:

90% of the post production houses and editors are FCP/apple based. The majority of the work done in Toronto is in the mid-low end commercial world, music videos, web and TV shows. Most of these being low budget by American standards and most of them being HD delivery for TV and web, Pro-res is considered a perfectly acceptable option as far as image quality and compression go for about half these productions and companies. Therefor, every other company and their brothers are switching to Alexa and shooting straight to pro-res because they can.

People are renting RED-MX's for peanuts here now and there isn't an Alexa in the city that has a day off. That is a fact, like it or not and I would bet my bottom dollar it's happening almost entirely because of the pro-res option. The added cost of Alexa body out weighs the added cost of processing and conforming .R3D for commercial/video production companies at the end of the day, not to mention the faster delivery times and lower storage space demands.

If RED wants to compete with Arri right now, in the industries current state, this is going to have to happen and soon and NOT just on the EPIC. You can't just say "well you can get this piece of hard ware or hire this technician to handle the footage." I speak with editors almost daily about this, and they're all pushing Alexa as hard as the DP's and producers are at the moment.

Those are my thoughts and observations on the subject anyway. Some interesting points in this thread, glad I looked it up.