Pro plasma vs Dreamcolor

[Philipe Ratton]

What would be your option to use for grading ?
Using only HDMI, no hdsdi.
Dreamcolor or panasonic pro plasma 50 12 series ?

 

[M Most]

What would be your option to use for grading ?
Using only HDMI, no hdsdi.
Dreamcolor or panasonic pro plasma 50 12 series ?

That partially depends on what you're delivering. If you're delivering HD video, you're much better off with a plasma in part because it's a much larger, easier to see image, but also because it's inherently a video monitor, not a computer monitor running a color space and gamma emulation. If you're delivering other things - film or digital cinema, for instance - those emulation modes can come in handy. In the high end finishing world, plasmas are almost universally used now for television work, and digital cinema projectors are used for film and digital cinema. I don't know of any "high end" facility - at least in Los Angeles - that uses LCD's for anything other than general monitoring (i.e., not color grading work). That doesn't mean they can't work, but it does mean that in the most demanding facilities in the world they are not generally used.

 

[craigjkharris]

I would go with a pro plasma and something like the Cinetal Davio for color space management.

 

[sander kamp]

I have the Dreamcolor and it certainly works. What is great is that you can use it in different modes like rec709 and dci-p3.

Disadvantage is I think that it relatively small. With more than 1-2 people in the room you are going to have a problem.

 

[M Most]

Disadvantage is I think that it relatively small. With more than 1-2 people in the room you are going to have a problem.

Another disadvantage with other people in the room (i.e., clients) is the off axis performance, particularly in the blacks. This is a problem with just about every LCD ever made, particularly when compared with an emissive technology like plasma. Some are much worse than others, but none are as good as plasma in that regard.

 

[sander kamp]

Another disadvantage with other people in the room (i.e., clients) is the off axis performance, particularly in the blacks. This is a problem with just about every LCD ever made, particularly when compared with an emissive technology like plasma. Some are much worse than others, but none are as good as plasma in that regard.

True. It's good when you're on your own and you can face the monitor directly, but with a director, a DP and some clients together you're going to have a hard time.

 

[davidtorres]

True. It's good when you're on your own and you can face the monitor directly, but with a director, a DP and some clients together you're going to have a hard time.

Could be a good option de new Apple LED CINEMA DISPLAY 27" for color grading when my final delivery is HD TV (USING APPLE COLOR OR DAVINCI RESOLVE )

 

[Bruce Allen]

What would be your option to use for grading ?
Using only HDMI, no hdsdi.
Dreamcolor or panasonic pro plasma 50 12 series ?

Why not both? If you buy a Panasonic consumer plasma display in the VT25 series (very very similar panel) and a Dreamcolor, the combo will likely cost you under $6000. It's a really good deal compared to the "pro" prices where you're paying like $2000 for a frikkin' HD-SDI board.

Anyway, I have the Dreamcolor right now and it's good. I'll likely get the next generation of plasma that Panasonic makes in 2011... I'm putting the money I save towards that 4K 48fps 3D projector

Always budget a bit for calibration too. Also be aware that you might want an AJA or Blackmagic box to feed the Dreamcolor (it needs a RGB HDMI feed so that it can turn on its color correction algorithms - depending on your video output card, the output signal for HDMI might be YUV instead of RGB and you'll need a box to convert).

Could be a good option de new Apple LED CINEMA DISPLAY 27" for color grading when my final delivery is HD TV (USING APPLE COLOR OR DAVINCI RESOLVE )

You'll find that the Apple display has reds that are too bright when the red values are high - and too dim when the red values are low. EG overall, the scene is not red enough - but the deep red colors are too intense. Not a completely accurate representation of HDTV. And you likely can't easily calibrate your way out if it.

Still better than what people think though. Anyway, that's my impression from having a 27" 2009 iMac right next to my (calibrated) Dreamcolor - and I think the iMacs use the same screen as the Apple 27" so that's my 2c. But yeah, get the Dreamcolor if you're doing pro, paid work.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[craigjkharris]

Could be a good option de new Apple LED CINEMA DISPLAY 27" for color grading when my final delivery is HD TV (USING APPLE COLOR OR DAVINCI RESOLVE )

An Apple monitor would not be a good option for delivering anything for HD TV. Unless you have the ability to calibrate it to a REC 709 or SMPTE color space, you'll never be able to achieve accurate color, brightness or contrast results.

 

[davidtorres]

Bruce + Craig thanks for you clear and sharp comments, I appreciate

 

[Philipe Ratton]

Why not both?

Bruce, I have a kona lhi and the box. I'm using the sdi to go to a BM ultrascope and I'll use the hdmi for the monitor, I dont think I can have both the dreamcolor and the plasma, can I ?

 

[Bruce Allen]

Bruce, I have a kona lhi and the box. I'm using the sdi to go to a BM ultrascope and I'll use the hdmi for the monitor, I dont think I can have both the dreamcolor and the plasma, can I ?

Sorry, don't understand why you can't do both. Methinks you could use any number of combinations of HD-SDI or HDMI splitters to achieve this.

Also, Ultrascope desktop version sends HD-SDI through.

So for example you could do:
KONA -> HD-SDI -> Ultrascope -> Hi5 -> Dreamcolor
and
KONA -> HDMI -> Panasonic Plasma

or maybe
KONA -> HD-SDI -> Ultrascope -> Hi5 -> HDMI splitter -> Dreamcolor & Panasonic Plasma

Am I missing something important?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Philipe Ratton]

No you are not Bruce, I was. BTW, what would be a good solution for calibrating the plasma ?

 

[Bruce Allen]

No you are not Bruce, I was. BTW, what would be a good solution for calibrating the plasma ?

Personally I'd hire someone who could come in with one of those $5000 Hubble probes. Or wait to see how Jeff Kilgroe does with his attempts to calibrate his Panasonic VT25 plasma in the other thread

That said, at some point you have to think: what am I calibrating FOR?

If you're viewing your work on a Dreamcolor LCD calibrated with their probe, plus a stock Panny plasma... just add an Apple computer monitor and one of those blue-ish color temperature Sony LCD HDTVs and you have the likely consumer viewing formats covered If your stuff looks good there, chances are it'll look good in a $100,000 calibrated room too.

I just finished up a feature color correction job that's currently being projected:
- outdoors in a slum in Kenya
- and at the Vancouver film festival (off of what'll presumably be a not-too-accurate digital projector hooked up to HDCAM).

I did the final touches using a very low-cost setup - eg Dreamcolor, desktop Mac.

The money I saved on my setup I could spend on courier fees - vital if your director is sitting in the largest slum in Kenya

He'd just get each Blu-Ray and play it, send me notes eg "hey man, this scene looks a little dim or uneven on the projector - let's change it" - and I would send him a new Blu-Ray.

I think it worked better than color-correcting in a perfect room and saying "here's your finished product made in my PERFECT room - if you don't like it, it's your problem - suck it and get a more accurate projector" But then I have a strong relationship of trust with the director. So it was more just about serving their needs.

Having a well-calibrated room helps a lot more if you have clients questioning your every move.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Philipe Ratton]

That sounds like an amazing job, total integration. As a director myself, I wish I could work more with fellows like you.

 

[M Most]

I think it worked better than color-correcting in a perfect room and saying "here's your finished product made in my PERFECT room - if you don't like it, it's your problem - suck it and get a more accurate projector"

I think I know what you're trying to say here, but I don't know of any professional colorist who would say what you've just stated. A "good enough" mentality will only produce "good enough" results. A professional mentality will produce superior work, assuming there is a modicum of expertise and talent behind it. Proper decorum is part of a professional approach, and the fact is that a proper environment and proper tools are not frivolous and unimportant if one is to do their best work.

 

[Philipe Ratton]

I think I know what you're trying to say here, but I don't know of any professional colorist who would say what you've just stated. A "good enough" mentality will only produce "good enough" results. A professional mentality will produce superior work, assuming there is a modicum of expertise and talent behind it. Proper decorum is part of a professional approach, and the fact is that a proper environment and proper tools are not frivolous and unimportant if one is to do their best work.

I agree with you but I think in some cases one could adapt, therefore delivering a product that will look better on a not so professional environment

 

[Luis Otero]

Welcome to the Redvolution...!!!

Welcome to the Redvolution...!!!

I agree with you but I think in some cases one could adapt, therefore delivering a product that will look better on a not so professional environment

Philipe,

Well, if the final product is better, then I can call it a professional environment. Adapt is the key word of your response...

Remember that we are living in a moment of the cinema history in which the big, all powerful studios, and the blood sucking support services houses are desperate since with decent set-ups and talent, the results delivered are comparable with was only attained with equipment that cost them millions of dollars.

And there are blood sucking "professionals" working for those houses that are no longer in a position to ask for $500/hour for their services. Now we are their competitors since we did not need the millions to invest in equipment to achieve "professional" results that are satisfying to the clients and the audience.

Cheers!!!

 

[M Most]

...the blood sucking support services houses are desperate ...
And there are blood sucking "professionals" working for those houses...we did not need the millions to invest in equipment to achieve "professional" results that are satisfying to the clients and the audience.

The next time you deal with a major network television program, for which you must turn around 3 to 4 hours of material in 4 different formats (some physically delivered and some electronically), all with double system sync sound, by 8AM every night for about 9 months, along with finishing that meets the technical and creative standards for network delivery with only about 2 days lead time, and can pull all of that off to the satisfaction of some of the most demanding cinematographers and producers in the world, let me know.

Making a decent living at one's chosen career does not make one a "bloodsucker." Not everything in this world is free, nor should it be. People who are good at what they do should be paid fairly for that skill if there is an audience that demands that level of talent and expertise. Making a living wage does not constitute sucking blood. Jim Jannard didn't make his billions by smugly telling everyone he could make stuff cheaper than everyone else. In fact, with Oakley he did exactly the opposite. That didn't make him a "bloodsucker," it made him a smart and successful businessman. I don't know where some people here get the idea that making money at one's job is something evil, or that charging a lower rate makes one better, because in my book, neither one is even close to being the truth. The reality of what major post houses accomplish every day seems to be lost on many people these days who have never experienced it and who have little to no clue what those facilities go through day in and day out. And that IS the truth.

 

[Bruce Allen]

I think I know what you're trying to say here, but I don't know of any professional colorist who would say what you've just stated. A "good enough" mentality will only produce "good enough" results. A professional mentality will produce superior work, assuming there is a modicum of expertise and talent behind it. Proper decorum is part of a professional approach, and the fact is that a proper environment and proper tools are not frivolous and unimportant if one is to do their best work.

Right right. But bear in mind that I was actually the SECOND colorist on that movie.

The first post house had a $100,000 calibrated Big Iron system but their grades sucked, so I got called in.

For the price and the project, I believe I gave them the best result possible.

Agreed if you are making a career as a colorist you want the high-end stuff. Part of just being professional.

But if you just want to make your own films and your trusted friends' films look awesome... you can ut together a system that is technically "good enough" - and beat a post house that invests too much in equipment and calibration and too little in people. And there are a ton of those places out there.

Not you of course, Mike - you do great work AND have a great infrastructure. Hence why I recommend folks to you despite all of our disagreements on Reduser Cheers!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com