Pricing a Red One system

[Jon Furtado]

and at the 50k price range, used r1 packages have also floored in pricing. shop around, find someone with a decent kit already pre made for you already, and use leftover money you have to patch it back up. In your area, as Noah says, it's gonna be tough, so expect slow and low returns. Depending on what kind of work you guys are doing it might be a bad investment if a EX3 was even considered as an option. Don't lose site that this is a full on digital cinema system that has the flexibility to shoot a variety of things. But it's no joke, no par with f35, genesis, alexa, arri d-21, etc. etc. And a lot of people have them.

I think your goal should be to focus on what kind of clientele you want to have and are going to have. If an EX3 will get you that same kind of clients full tricked out, you might be saving yourself a lot a money and seeing a quick return on your equipment...

Just wanna make sure you guys are knowing what you get into that's all.

Thanks Tom. I really appreciate your suggestions. In your opinion, what exactly is the RED best for? What is its best use and target market? What is not good for?

 

[Tom.Wong]

You can use RED for anything you want, but it's main strengths are controlled CINEMA situations IMHO (narrative, music videos, broadcast tv shows). But people with the ingenuity have managed to make it a ENG camera, timelapse camera, etc. etc.

Red isn't a bad investment if you are shooting a lot, and get a lot of work in. If you are using it every day, and people are coming to you for your skillsets, and your RED, there is not a problem at all. In fact that makes it a fantastic investment!

But if it's on and off shooting, you have to think yourself, how long will it take THIS company to make back 50k+? How long will it take you to get out of the negative? I ask myself that every time I want to clench down and get a new computer part, but in the end, the amount of work I'm getting doesn't justify the latest and greatest constantly. I can make due and actually make a profit for a change.

EPIC/Scarlet, think late this year and early 2011 for full on production for the masses, as Tattoo stages and original Red owners get priority. If you are positive that the work and business in there, then I say go ahead, have at it and make some wicked awesome content. If not, than I suggest think twice. It's a lot of money, more affordable than it's ever been which what makes it so enticing, but I've seen plenty of people selling their R1's that barely used it and have to take a huge hit on what the spent because their work didn't justify the equipment.

It's no longer the guarantee cash cow anymore, we are right back to where we were before. It's your skillsets that will get you the money now, packages only help so much.

 

[Noah Kadner]

So do you think the current RED ONE is a bad investment for shooting any projects or rental at the moment for a startup production company?

I'm not saying that at all. :emote_popcorn: I'm saying it's an investment that:

a- does not make money for itself. You're not buying a ticket to easy rental money. You're buying a ticket into serious competition and a crowded rental market. (L.A. is probably the toughest RED market there is. You're up against all the big rental houses, their years of service and loyal clients. And RED owner/operators who've had their cameras for years now and have their workflows down cold.)

b- Pays itself off only if you are shooting every day and for major clients. Otherwise as Tom so clearly points out- you can be just buying a lot of debt or way more camera than you need. And I don't know your client. If for example they're shooting five/six figure commercial spots every week on 35mm, this camera is definitely for them. If they're shooting occasional corporate videos once a month, something like the EX3 is more than enough and won't make them go into bankruptcy.

Lots of folks have bought these cameras thinking they are buying themselves into Steven Soderbergh and Peter Jackson-level filmmaking. It would be no truer to say that buying a paint brush makes you Picasso. It's just a tool and a really expensive one at that. In the right hands it can deliver amazing results. But then again in the right hands, so can any decent camera. Just depends how far that footage needs to go- like DVD, broadcast, film, etc.

That you are living so close to L.A. and haven't rented one yet tells me you could use some hands-on experience first so you can learn how RED works and what the workflow entails. (Also it's a bit of a conflict of interest if you are partially pushing them toward a tool they might not really need because you want to use it-- but I didn't say that out loud!) :sifone:

I'd suggest you set up a test shoot- there are literally hundreds of RED ONEs you could have brought down to Palm Springs tomorrow for the asking and rental fee. Start there and carefully evaluate. This is like buying a house. Do it thoughtfully so you don't get burned.

Noah

 

[Tom.Wong]

w00t

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Jon, in a nutshell, follow the advice of those who have been there, done that. Having said that, if this production company is coming to the table with a pre-existing client roster, and their goal is to take production quality up a notch, then perhaps it makes sense. If they are hoping to attract clients by having a RED, obviously that is a much harder sell as the novelty and excitement has cooled off a bit and as others mentioned, it really is coming down to what you do with the camera. I highly recommend a comprehensive business plan if they don't have one already. When done right, these can really reveal flaws in approach. Doing market studies, identifying what kind of clients you want, long term financial projections, etc. help give the business a clear objective, a path to follow. It's also a way to analyze what it will take to recoup the investment in a digital cinema camera versus a more affordable, yet less capable system like an EX3. You may find the results lead you away from Red simply by projecting profit margins based on the type of clients you expect to work with. You may find that you can afford the RED and a basic accessory package, but that it makes more sense to rent a lot of the other equipment on a per project basis because not all of the jobs will have the same requirements. There's a whole lot of homework to be done, but the good news is once you do it, it leads to a more focused endeavor. This may be something you're already quite comfortable with and maybe you or the production company have already done, but I figured I'd throw it out there in case it helps.

There are very specific RED packages that can handle the types of projects you described. If you can figure out what that budget number is, even a ballpark number, that would help quite a bit.

 

[Scott Crawley]

They're looking to create a high end production company in the Palm Springs area. They've looking into cameras like the Sony EX3. But I just think that overall, a RED might be a better investment for them.

I wouldn't say that you can't make very respectable looking music videos with an EX3, but if they are saying "High End Production Company" but tossing about EX3 numbers I would proceed with caution. There seems to be a need for a serious realignment of expectations.

 

[Antony M]

You're going to need more than one RED or one EX3 to "create a high end production company"

If your "client" wants us to build some serious packages, drop me a line with a list of equipment you want. But, don't waist my time if you are just kicking tires.

Scott: sschneider@fvesco.com

Patronising, much?

BTW, "waste" not "waist".

And this is a "real names forum".

Thanks. Hope I'm not waisting (sic) your time

 

[Erik Franzén]

Patronising, much?

BTW, "waste" not "waist".

And this is a "real names forum".

Thanks. Hope I'm not waisting (sic) your time

Just in case you did not notice, he's a REDuser sponsor - hence exempt from the rule (or well, he ought to be). :thumbsup:

 

[Scott Crawley]

Just in case you did not notice, he's a REDuser sponsor - hence exempt from the rule (or well, he ought to be). :thumbsup:

I don't mean to jack this thread with a useless policy debate, so if you could just quickly state why you think paid advertisers should be exempt from the forum rules.

 

[Stephen Williams]

I don't mean to jack this thread with a useless policy debate, so if you could just quickly state why you think paid advertisers should be exempt from the forum rules.

Hi,

He is representing a company, he signs Scott, from his email address it's pretty clear his name is Scott Schneider. I don't see how there could be any confusion.

 

[Scott Crawley]

Hi,

He is representing a company, he signs Scott, from his email address it's pretty clear his name is Scott Schneider. I don't see how there could be any confusion.

It is good that he does that, but it has been made clear that a sig is not enough. The policy is real names. I don't think it's a matter of confusion, it's about accountability. Since that doesn't seem to apply here I see no need to push the issue. If however you want to talk further I'm open to PM.

Cheers,
Scott

 

[Erik Franzén]

I don't mean to jack this thread with a useless policy debate, so if you could just quickly state why you think paid advertisers should be exempt from the forum rules.

Hi!
It's not my policy and it certainly isn't coming from me! (thou I full heartedly agree with RED's reasoning). It is, however, true that there are exemptions to this rule for companies. Looking around REDuser you can see multiple REDuser sponsors who do not have their names but instead the name of their companies (16x9 comes to mind...).
I don't know if this is inadequate moderating or not - but I recall it being mentioned (by Jeff) that if you wanted to have anything other than your real name you had to contact RED and sign a sponsorship. I tried to find a quote but didn't. Hope that answers it. Of course, I could have misread and be totally wrong, in which case I hope Jeff the man will jump in and correct my erroneous ways.:sifone:
P.S. tried to send this in a PM but the damn server kept nagging me for a missing security token and would just re-direct me to a blank page! So I posted it here instead (just FYI so this discussion doesn't hijack the thread!).

 

[Martin Weiss]

Sponsors can have their company name as screen name.

Remember: Without sponsors there wouldn't be reduser.

 

[Damien Molineaux]

And I'll add, a company name is a real name, it makes that company accountable for what is said under that name !

Cheers,
Damien

 

[Jay Gannon]

I think it was a relatively fair assessment that the company has larger problems than choosing a camera if they were planning to shoot EX-3's in a "high end production" company.
Not knocking the Ex3 but you need more than cameras to start a high end production company you need talent and experience.

 

[Martin Weiss]

And I'll add, a company name is a real name, it makes that company accountable for what is said under that name !

Just to avoid misunderstanding: only sponsors can use their company name. And only sponsors can advertise their products.

Anyone wanting to become a sponsor, take contact with Jason Ramsey here on reduser.

---

As to this thread I am a bit baffled that a company that obviously lacks knowledge in the sector they are trying to enter, does not then buy expertise to get such knowledge.

 

[Scott Crawley]

As to this thread I am a bit baffled that a company that obviously lacks knowledge in the sector they are trying to enter, does not then buy expertise to get such knowledge.

Well, if they are considering the purchase of an EX-3 because they can't swing the Red One, then they likely can't afford to pay the kind of salary that real expertise in the field commands. ;-) No offense to the OP if he is their expertise.

 

[James Press]

Jon--I've sent you a PM. Cheers, James.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

You're going to need more than one RED or one EX3 to "create a high end production company"

If your "client" wants us to build some serious packages, drop me a line with a list of equipment you want. But, don't waist my time if you are just kicking tires.

Scott: sschneider@fvesco.com

A high end production company is about signed talent, and relationships. I know of one doing over 1 million in service sales here in Montreal. They own no equipment at all other than a few filters.

You don't buy your way into being high end. Rent what you use less often, but if it makes sense and saves you money over rental over a reasonable period, or gives you access to practicing with your gear and improving your craft, then buy. It's that simple.
Only your reel matters, along with the people you work with, not what you own. In a big city you can rent anything.