PreViz software - what would you want?

[Benni Diez]

We're just developing a concept for a 3d-previz software. I want it to be as simple as, say, an iPhone. You know, intuitive, ease of use, just start it and get going.
The problem with existing solutions is that they are mostly limited to storyboarding, with merely an option for moving camera.
Or you use a complete 3d-package like 3dsMax or Maya, but then you have to bring quite some CG knowledge.
And they all have lots of stuff I don't need that just make it more complicated.

But let's say a director or DP just wants to block out a complicated scene on the fly. Or an assistant director has to come up with a solution because of a missing set piece while the rest are still shooting, or a VFX sup wants to quickly see how big the green screen for that exterior shot will have to be.

What would you want an easy previz solution to have as features? No matter if you are a newbie filmmaker, a hardass producer, a pro DP, a VFX sup - gimme your thoughts!

I'll start with a few ones I'd like to see:
- simple but customizable GUI
- one scene viewport, one timeline, one asset browser
- audio import (for music timing, temp dialogue blocking...)
- import of standard 3d files from other programs
- simple default setups, but detailed options
- real-world measurements of cameras, lenses, lights...
- seperate asset builder, community-based sharing of assets
- usable for no-budget up to studio feature, music videos, commercials
- overall: keep it simple, efficient, easy to use, affordable

 

[Joel Kaye]

www.Antics3D.com - they beat you to it. That software kicks ass.

 

[Benni Diez]

Didn't know that one. F%$§ dammit! They're good.
I'll have to try it...
Still, bring on your thoughts.

 

[Isa Totah]

Mac Version

Mac Version

Antics doesn't currently have a Mac version. That would be great. Also, although Antics is very powerful, the interface could be MUCH more intuitive (like the iPhone) so there's a lot of room for improvement. Previs for narrative filmmakers needs to be fast and intuitive or it's not worth the trouble. Ease of use is extremely important. Look how many smart phones existed with dozens of features that rival the iPhone. And look at the iPhone. If you just did a laundry list of features, other phones look comparable or better but the opposite it true.

 

[James T Mather]

Real world correlation of lenses. (ie: a 40mm has an equivalent field of view to the 40mm inside the package - useful for sets etc including anamorphic)

depth of field preview like in frameforge 3d given particular formats

The ability to "cut time" in the previz (one of the limits of antics 3d is the inability to remove time from an edit - check out the end sequence here from Back to the future - The doctor pulls on the cable and there are at least 3 edits that contribute to the effect of the plug coming undone - in short the editor has cut backwards in time to see the three edits (which temporally occur at the exact same time but editingwise sequentially (its an editing cheat employed all the time in drama production) - antics, being in real time - doesn't allow this. (you need to bring the previz into a 3rd party editor which is a bit of a drag and somewhat limiting)

on output the display of lenses and camera heights (useful for selecting grip equipment) - the ability to output iphone size would be handy for on set playback plus a storyboard version (lens info etc could be burned in at the bottom of the frame).

 

[Bruce Allen]

There is SOOO much that can be done. I'm going to start this list now and add to it later

Here goes, just top-of-my head brainstorming... (and I don't expect all of it in Version 1 - like everyone says, just make the user interface awesome to start with).

1. keep each stage simple and easy to use. Drag and drop.
- Take a look at Solidworks for a good example of combining drag & drop ease of use, with precision and real-world specifics. I like the fact that you can sketch stuff out there, but drop in specific nuts and bolts, etc. Similarly I want to have a nice library of actual cranes, jibs, etc. In an ideal world I want to be able to drop in a Kino and get a good idea of the area it'll light. Extending this, put a little clock in the corner of the screen - it gives a time of day simulation so you can figure out which side of the street will be in shadow

2. that said don't let the practical library stuff interfere with the concepting phase. If I want to create or revise a set of shots, sometimes I want to think practically, sometimes I don't - just let me focus on the right-brain stuff and I'll figure out how to pull it off later.

3. make keyboard shortcuts exactly match software we already use. J,K,L keys, etc.

4. Make it super-easy for us to use photos taken during location scouting.
(logical extension of this is panoramic bubbles a la Speed Racer, or even better, image modelling a la ImageModeler, pfTrack, photoSynth, a million university research YouTube videos, etc.

5. acknowledge the importance of actual drawn storyboards. I hate the current programs because everything looks like crap. Give me 3D paint so I can draw on stuff.

6. Yes absolutely to all of James Mathers' suggestions

7. Nice print out features. Export to editing package like other storyboarding programs (I can do a set of boards and hit export and they'll pop up in my Avid). Import Final Draft scripts. Export shotlists, etc.

I have some pro previs friends, let me talk to them too.

Oh, also be aware of these crazy folk - xtranormal:
http://www.fxguide.com/qt/395/new-at-siggraph

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Joe Carney]

Sketchup from Google is also good for constructing buildings and such. The next version of Antics will import Sketchup objects. The current pro version is on sale for 95 USD until end of Aug. Don't know what the upgrade to ver 4 cost will be.
I also agree with Bruce's #4 and 5.

 

[Joel Kaye]

Previs for narrative filmmakers needs to be fast and intuitive or it's not worth the trouble.

I agree and if someone can do better I'm all for it, but Antics has adjusted their user interface since earlier versions and with hotkeys combined with a mouse/trackball it is very fast with a bit of practice. You need to be able to dolly, zoom, pan, tilt, boom, rotate the world, move objects and direct characters all very quickly and I think you can do that right now. I'm not sure how you do all that quickly and easily on an iPhone. I think you've got to have a controller and hotkeys. There's a reason 3D apps use 3 buttons.

Their quick character animation and library of stuff is really helpful. They've even got Sketchup import working now.

I think the only thing they are really missing is visible DOF. I'd agree that it would be cool to have a Mac version.

 

[Joe Carney]

I stand corrected. There is discount pricing for purchase for ver 4 for 95.00 usd.

 

[Joel Kaye]

antics, being in real time - doesn't allow this. (you need to bring the previz into a 3rd party editor which is a bit of a drag and somewhat limiting)

Interesting thought and maybe they'll add it but as you say that's easy to get in an edit. Personally, I mostly want to communicate camera setups, moves and basic actions so I probably have simpler needs than bigger productions but I think that's what we're talking about here - an inexpensive previz app that's faster and easier than 2D storyboard apps.

 

[Kwan Khan]

I'm Using Frame Forge 3D to design my shots.
http://www.frameforge3d.com/

 

[James T Mather]

Sure - it just means a lot of chopping and changing between applications etc. Don't get me wrong - antics3d is the best software out there

 

[Joel Kaye]

Sure - it just means a lot of chopping and changing between applications etc.

It's a good point. Because it's real time the edits don't actually feel right to me sometimes. In an editor you can skip time or repeat time to make the feeling right. I've just ignored that but now that you bring it up it is something I'd like to see in the app.

 

[Albert Cheng]

thought about that as well

thought about that as well

Finally a topic I know quite alot about. I'm a senior previz artist in LA and a former game graphics programmer. I spent a lot of my own money developing a real-time previs program, utilizing at the time, one of the licensed game engines out there. My reason is, I wanted to do previs, had my own ideas on how to create the ideal tool based on my cinematics experience, and was familiar programming with the latest graphics engines. And there wasn't something out there like it at the time that I could find.

So with startup loans, and an idea in mind, and one additional programmer, I set off to work. Then suddenly, I discovered Motionbuilder, Antics, Storyviz and several other real-time previz programs in the works. None of them operated the way I wanted, I was planning things like multi-user networked scene creation and layout and all these cool things which none of the new programs had. In the end, after spending a lot of money, I decided to shelve the idea indefinitely and see how the market dealt with the latest crop of programs.

Now that I've worked with numerous directors on many films, I've come to better understand what is needed. I still have plans to create the ultimate previs tool, but I don't have the resources to exceed the current best solution. I will tell you this, Motion Builder is the #1 tool currently in hollywood for doing anything real-time. And Maya follwed by XSI is the number #1 tool for asset creation and primary layout.

Traditional previs (rendered) is typically used in Maya and XSI. But on some shows like Beowulf \ Avatar \ Alice In Wonderland, you will be doing real-time and with mocap. We export our sets from Maya to Motionbuilder (getting better), bring in multi-character mocap (even live mocap sometimes), and use an external device (in our case an intersense system) to allow the director to drive the camera in the scene.

We'll record and playback the live "TAKE" and make any adjustments necessary live. I'm not sure what the official name of this process is as it's different than traditional previs, but definitely under the same umbrella. But as far as real-time goes, it doesn't get much more real-time than this and it's definitely a big part of where filmmaking is heading.

It's intense having directors standing behind you waiting to make changes on the fly. You don't want them to wait but making changes in 3D take time (beyond simple, "move that chair a little to the left"). Often times it's like, "Delay the performance of this characters so I we can have more time to get the camera over here and not feel rushed" or something like that. And remember, you are working with mocap performances.

My main point is, Motionbuilder is currently the best tool out there for perforing Real-Time previs. The main reason is that it's FAST. We can have 10 characters mocapped playing back in real time in a set. Then, we can add control rigs and tweak their mocap perforances and slide them around. The lighting is quite good and has gotten even better in Motionbuilder 2009 as well as supporting CGFX shaders. You can animate on Layers which is key for tweaking performances. And you can create clips of anything animated, allowing you to retime and blend animation.

This stuff is important once you've spent a lot of time working with directors because you learn what it is they want out of doing real-time previz. The goal is to create the actual shots that will go into editorial. To do this, all your primary elements need to be in the scene. This includes effects, audio dialogue and sometimes music; everything with the exception of facial animation and high quality textures or other aspects of scene fidelity that are not essential for describing the shot. They use this so they can imagine the shot and best capture what they can see in their mind to best tell the story.

I can go on all day but I just thought it would be helpful to gain a perspective of things because I myself have gone through that several years ago. It was 2003 when I started on it.

I'm also working on a visual storytelling class which encapsulates my knowledge of film, cinematography and visual storytelling and will be utilizing previs as excercises in Maya and Motionbuilder. It's the kind of class that I always wished I could have taken. Still working on the class curriculum but have quite a ways to go. I'll be teaching it out of some school in Los Angeles in the future.

Hope that helps.

 

[Albert Cheng]

one more thing i'd like to add. Antics just doesn't cut the mustard. These off the shelf previz programs likes antics are currently only useful for things of limited scope, like personal projects. Yes, you could do a commercial or something on it but it would be quite crude by modern previs standards. There is no off the shelf solution for doing previz to the quality that is expected nowadays.

The main reason is that you are now very involved with the art production department. You will be getting art direction from the art director / production designer, be given concept paintings to build your sets, have the dp sit down with you to light the sets. These are all very detailed things where you need a mature and professional program as well as significant CG skills to perform. Previs has matured so much in the past several years and the quality of work has evolved. You will need CG skills in multiple disciplines and be very proficient in the latest programs. I'm even starting to learn and use Massive for low res crowds/vehciles as ambient effects. In summary, this sector of the industry is getting more and more sophisticated.

 

[Munthe]

Agree totally. Antics is a really slow way to previz something. I would prefer a storyboard since it's ten times faster and more detailed. Or just someone who knows Maya since it's ten times faster to animate the smallest movement in strong character animations apps than Antics that really is everything but animation friendly with all it's pre recorded motion loops. A good BVH library and a solid animation package is a much better alternative. Plus you get a better rendering even with render settings switched to draft. Antics seems to be using a really old game engine (UT?). Rendering could look so much better using a more up to date engine or an exporter to something like 3Delight. Using DirectX 10 a previz tool like that could be used for planning actual set lighting in minute detail.

What I would like to see is a strong previz tool for on set production. I work a lot in green screen and would love to see a product that does live visual tracking and that can give me a live visual of a 3D modeled set in 6DOF. Write it for DirectX 10. Don't involve Macs in things 3D. It's one of the things that is severely limited on that platform. That's why you don't see any Augmented Reality sollutions on the Mac or anything VR related. RT GPU power simply isn't there.

DirectX 10 real time rendering (Windows Only)

 

[Benni Diez]

Well I see it more as a simple tool that can be used as quick as pen and paper. For very detailed mocap stuff there's Motionbuilder. For sophisticated looks and light simulation there's Max and Maya.
What I want as a filmmaker is the freedom of regular storyboarding combined with the reliability of seeing the stuff in 3D, with proper lenses and basic texturing/lighting. Nothing fancy, just detailed enough to see if an idea works or not.
You don't need directx10 shaders to see if an idea sucks.
We'll have to see. With all the stuff that's already out there it looks like it's hard to develop something new and not lose a lot of money.
Maybe another way to input animation data would be the key. But I think data gloves are way out of fashion nowadays. Maybe we'll wait until multitouch displays are more common.
It has to be as easy as playing with toy cars.

 

[Mike S. M.]

Talking about Antics and Frameforge, has anybody used iClone or Moviestorm? How do they compare? Thanks.