*** Premier CS4 vs. FCP 6 ***

[Ketch Rossi]

Okay,

first I like to say that this is not a direct questioning of which one is better, but which one is better for me!!

So the advises that I'm looking for here from those that have use both, especially more recent copies, such the APP4 and FCP6, and both on MAC platforms off course as I'm a MAC user and will not absolutely go back to PC.

This are the things for you to consider before making your suggestion on which to go for:


A) I have never used any Editing suites, not ever.

B) I'm a MAC User ONLY.

C) I will only shoot all my Projects, from Shorts, to Commercials, to Documentaries and off course Feature Films, 100% with RED Cameras.

D) I already use Adobe Photoshop CS4, Adobe Bridge CS4 and Adobe LR2, for all my Photography work.



I want to learn how to edit, as I find it imperative at times, especially with upcoming projects were I need to have control over the editing, but more so were I need to do it on my own time and not that of other editors, I strive to become truly independent, from Writing, to shooting, to editing, to delivering the final product. This off course it is not intended for larger film projects, were I hope to get in off of a budjet to always been able to Hire the best in each field, but beginning we must all, and I fill is time for me to jump on the editing wagon, as I find it an incredible important part of creating a project, no matter how small or large it might be.

So:

A) Should I stay all in an Adobe platform and go with APP4 because all the controls, commands and keys short cuts will be in harmmony with the other programs I use from Adobe?

B) Should I go with FCP6 even so the command and short cut keys, might be completely different from those of the programs I already use, and possibly make it more difficult to learn?

Thank you very much for taking the time to read and advise.

ciao

 

[Joseph Hutson]

I have both FCP, and Adobe Creative Suite 4 Master Collection, and find FCP much better. Premier Pro is not as stable for me, nor for others as I have heard.

Since I don't have FCP6 though, I have not been able to work with Color much. With Color, I don't see why you would not go the FCP route.

Also, FCP is more popular in the industry, so if you need to collaborate with anyone else, it would be easier to streamline it all in Final Cut.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

PP4 is just a "mule" app to carry your FCP edit using EDL file and then you could import that to AF4 for 4K finishing and 4K output.

FCP and PPro will only talk clearly with EDL.

So you cut in FCP and via PP4 as a "mule" carry your edit to After Effect 4 and there color corect and output in 4K DPX or TIFF for a film print.

 

[Uli Plank]

Yes, I'd say Sanjin's route is fine if you have to output 4K. Or if you want good compositing possiblities, which don't seem to be important for you right now (AE is much more powerful than Motion).
But most films are still finished in 2K, and for that format I'd rather stay in Apple FCS. While Color Finesse is not bad, Apple's Color beats it in many aspects, like keyframing or using a control panel (you'll want one for serious grading).

Both PP and FCP are still lacking some features when it comes to RED footage, PP for example doesn't recognise looks from RA and the media encoder is a pita. OTOH, FCP can't decode full 4K and editing native from the start is no fun, you'll want to go offline/online (which is more complicated than necessary in PP too).

Just my two cents (Euro).

 

[Stephen Gentle]

Everyone is a MAC user - I mean, it's pretty hard to connect to a network without Media Access Control, the networking sublayer. I don't see what that has to do with editing though...

Seriously though, I don't have that much experience with FCP, or editing on Mac OS X in general, but it does sound generally better supported in the industry. Premiere is great though how easily you can get projects into After Effects though. Except the only thing I don't like about that workflow is how hard it is to go back and make editing changes afterwards.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Conform and edit HD, 2K and 4K material with fusion between FCP and Adobe CS4

is a solution simply to say that somebody is able with that budget apps output full

HD, 2K and 4K DPX/TIFF, etc... footage shot with RED1.

It's about to compete with more expensive solutions starting with Scratch and finishing

in Baselight/Filmlight, Quantel's Pablo & iQ, Autodesk's Lustre & Smoke, Digital Vision's Nucoda,

DVS Clipster, Matrix DI Chrome, etc... whatever is your big studio post pro system.

With above solution you would be able to output for film print (on HDDs) even in the middle of real

or concrete jungle, urban or real desert or school, university, or your home studio, etc.

That's about 4K acquisition and output revolution that RED1 brought on the market.

With a fast raid could be even DI real-time edit, CC and conform system.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Thank you guys, your inputs are much appreciated.

So it seems that FCP6 is gaining over APP4, not to my surprise

But to me what it is also very important is the workflow learning curve it self, and as I said in the original thread, I already use several Adobe applications, so one of my main Questions remains, if the APP4 will be better and easier for me to learn then FCP6.

ciao

 

[Giancarlo Bianchi]

I believe FCP is more intuitive than Premiere.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

I believe FCP is more intuitive than Premiere.

Yes Giancarlo, that is also an important factor, but it is the learning curve that remains very important to me.

I like to get in to a workflow system that will not drive me crazy with turn around.

The main and only reason for me to consider APP4 is based on the fact that I already use Adobe apps, and think that will be easier for me to stick with the same line of programs as I imagine the command and key short cuts could be very similar to those I already use, but at the end of the day I want to get in to what it is best and easier to work in, from start to end.

ciao

 

[Jason Lambert]

My opinion is that the learning curve you have with either program will amount to being very similar. I don't see your background foundation with adobe apps being a huge help with your learning curve. You will have to learn how to edit and wrangle media in either program.

Having used PP, Avid and FCP my preference in ease of editing what I want to is FCP followed closely by Avid and then PP. (I know Avid is not an option for you but just stating my preferences for comparison). But it really comes down to what software you get most familiar with and more me I've always loaded up FCP first.

I'd look at some of the online tutorials for how to use each software and see which one makes more sense. Lynda.com has good tutorials that I've used myself but there are lots of others out there too.

 

[Christopher Grant Harvey]

I believe FCP is more intuitive than Premiere.

I find Premiere to be intuitive.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

My opinion is that the learning curve you have with either program will amount to being very similar. I don't see your background foundation with adobe apps being a huge help with your learning curve. You will have to learn how to edit and wrangle media in either program.

Having used PP, Avid and FCP my preference in ease of editing what I want to is FCP followed closely by Avid and then PP. (I know Avid is not an option for you but just stating my preferences for comparison). But it really comes down to what software you get most familiar with and more me I've always loaded up FCP first.

I'd look at some of the online tutorials for how to use each software and see which one makes more sense. Lynda.com has good tutorials that I've used myself but there are lots of others out there too.

Thanks Jason and Welcome to REDUSER. to your first post at list

I'm looking at Lynda.com for lessons, but I always try to limit the amount of info I put in to my Brain, as I tend yo mix things up easily this days, so wanted to go strait to learn what it could be best for me.

The learning curve factor it is an important one in deed bat if you say that there is no difference in having knowledge of other Adobe programs as the Editing is basically in a world of its own, well, then that makes it only a choice of which to go with for their capacity and benefits one over the other.

ciao

 

[laguun]

We completed many projects, from commercial to fullfeature, on Adobe Premiere CS4 and our FCP sees almost no use anymore. Only as compability application if a FCP projects has to be onlined and they come to us.

No matter if you prefer FCP or PPRO, which are both good applications, there are some main differences in quality, results and technology, in which FCP isn´t able to competete with Adobe Master CS4.

Quality.

a) PPro is full RED 4K, FCP is not. One can hack FCP "close" to 4k, which is certainly acceptable to many. However, most DoP we work with dislike if their image is always incomplete or zoomed in.

b) PPro is 16bit RGB color precision, FCP is 8 bit RGB colorprecision. While many people explain that YUV can be used for high color precision in FCP, >90% of all cinema work is RGB. Using YUV here would reduce quality, make keying and colorcorrection setups incompatible and YUV isnt acceptable to most cinema pipeline who were designed for film.

Bottomline quality & tech: With adobe cs4, you can master in the full quality of the red one, with FCP you cant. FCP reduces resolution and RGB colordepth. Adobe wins hands down here.

Ergonomics / Workflow.

a) If you use Adobe Photoshop, Adobe After Effects, Encore, Flash etc, the integration with FCP is problematic. With Premiere CS4, the integration is very good.

b) Being resolution independent inside of Premiere CS4 allows working on set in 1K on the notebook, going to 2K 8 bit in the Studio for editing and finally mastering in 4K full RGB colorprecision (also in the background if necessary) on the same machine, without converting/importing, only by copying the folder, is *the* workflow.

c) The background Adobe Media Encoder is very good. One doesnt have to stop working, on our 4 core i7 systems background export while editing in the foreground works fine.

Ergonomics / Workflow
Adobe is stronger again, especially if one wants to use Encore, Photoshop, Flash, After Effects.

Interface / Usability

Simply put: We are missing several functions in both products. However, being spoiled by discreet systems, sony xpri cobra etc this is only logical. Both can fullfill their job, both have a ok stability.

Price

Apple FCS is much cheaper than Adobe Master CS4 (i think its 1299$ at Apple vs. 2499$ at Adobe).

Company / Future

I am not convinced by Apples effort to develop support FCS in the long run. I have been burned by them on to many occasions in the last 20 years. When Apple killed shake and went in full hooray-mode at the same time for the ipod nano, or when way to many logic users had to switch to Nuendo/Cubase because Apple killed the Windows versions is to short ago to forget. Also, we are less than happy with the many issues professional users have to endure because Apple is to lazy, or incompetent, or uninterested (or a mix) to fix the dreaded gammashift, or to address the many (also wellknown) bugs and quality gotchas in apple color. Also their secretive information politics are a massive disadvantage for any largers operation planning and strategy. With Adobe its not perfect as well, however i am not afraid that they will go anywhere else than to remain *the* company for creative desktop software.

Package

While Adobe Master Cs4 wins hands down in total functionality, Apple has color which, despite being buggy and instable for longer and complex projects, is a fine tool, especially for the low price, if you dont have access to a more powerful colorcorrection system. Also motion is nice as well. So its:
Photoshop/Premiere/After Effects/Encore/On location/Ultra/Indesign/Fireworks/Flash/Dreamweaver/Illustrator/Media Encoder/soundbooth/none
vs.
none/fcp/motion/dvd studio/none/none/none/none/none/none/none/compressor/soundtrack/color
And which package fits better is dependent on the user. We, btw, replace color with discreet combustion & automatic duck, which offers in our situation much better quality (>4K, float, while color again doesnt support 4k).

Media and Formats

Apple cant deliver blu-ray for HD, cant deliver flash for the Web, cant deliver 4K and/or 10bit RGB DPX for filmrecording. For DVD, HDCAM, DigiBeta both are good. Furthermore Adobe device central is very good to support mobile media, while Apple lacks here.

3hrd party support for red

Here FCP shines - no products has more small 3hrd party tools for red. On the other Hand, one could argue, one needs much less workarounds and nifty tools when using Adobe, but stuff as Monkey Extract is nice to have.

Platform Support

Adobe ins OSX and Windows, Apple only OSX. Having Adobe crossplatform often helps a lot, especially if the customers come to us with an offline red FCP project.

Hardware Hunger

When using Ae/PPro/Me/Enc/Ps together 24 GB RAM and 8 cpu cores are fully used and well, most applications use 8 cores fully often. Also Adobe PS4 requires a 64bit CPU for the full memory usage, and the Adobe Master Collection really should run in a 64bit OS. Apple FCS is less hardware hungry and also, even if given, uses a lot less of the given hardware.

So, for a company as ours, its clear: FCP isnt able to deliver the full red quality and we cannot produce several medias which are important to us (4K dpx, blu-ray, flash) one-stop, one-system. For a freelancer it might be different and the added functionality of color, the lower price and the older hardware requirements may be very important reasons to decide in favor of Apple.

Also, if you "only" look for an editor, examine Avid as well. However, I personally would strongly recommend to check out Adobes 30 days free trial version, if not the Master CS4 at least the Production CS4.

 

[Christopher Grant Harvey]

Agreed, very valid and sensible posting.

The price of software is true, but is it true on a hardware level?

http://cineform.com/products/TechNotes/444_versus_422.htm

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Thanks for the very comprehensive post Laguun, much appreciated.

I have been watching videos all morning of both FCP and APP as well as aether programs form both companies that are a must with either application.

Even so the votes seems to go on to FCP, I find myself leaning towards a all in all Adobe platform, when I switched from Aperture to LR2 I came to be very surprise on how much better Adobe application was vs. the Apple one, and agreed with you 100% on the way and were Apple feature for Pro applications is going, hence my concern on going Apple Pro applications, I recall short well ago when Peter was at my studios that He was very unhappy to find out about a complete section of Apple to have been gone, and do to their concentration to the iPhone line.

I fill that Adobe will be no doubt a much more stable and focus platform in the years to come, in turn a better investment of time and money.

I will never do any work for any other, as far as editing goes, I will only edit and work on my own projects which will be all shot using RED cameras, so I don't have to worry about integration of other formats, other then the native R3D files, and the output with Adobe seems to be more then in off options to me.

Integration with Photoshop CS4 is important as I will be creating various motion videos out of Stills, and it is also important the integration with After Effect, so again here I see more reasons then none to go with Adobe.

But I continue to search for advises and continue to review both platforms, as well as educate my self watching more videos on both applications and their support applications.

I will not download the trial on both because I do have a problem of photographic memory and once I learn one program I will continuously try to do the same things when using an other similar program, so I prefer to choose right off the geico which one to go with and stick to it.

Thanks again for your input.

ciao

 

[Jason Lambert]

I agree I like lightroom better than aperture. I'm also a big photoshop/After effects user. However, I've gotten used to editing in FCP so that's my preference but as of today I don't see FCP as an end-to-end workflow solution for red footage.

For a complete end-to-end solution today from a single vendor, Adobe is the way to go. I use FCP for offline editing and then I finish in After Effects or Scratch. I tried using the latest premier version for editing to realize the end-to-end workflow but found I prefered working in FCP and that editing R3D files natively as of the current implementation didn't provide the speed of editing I needed so I had to do an offline/online anyway.

Also, while I don't want to open this up to a big debate on speculation for what apple's got in the future, I'm placing my own bets that in the next few months Apple will be unveiling something new (probably around the same time Snow Leopard comes out). I think the long wait/silence on major updates has been due to apple revamping the foundations they are building the next generation of software on. But everyone has different speculatatiton on the death of apple pro apps or the next great thing coming soon so if you need something today, I'd ignore this factor. If you're looking longer term I think seeing what apple has coming or not coming in the near future could be beneficial before making the choice.

But from what you've said about your software preferences and if you need something today, you would probably be best going with Adobe.

Good luck!

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

The main and only reason for me to consider APP4 is based on the fact that I already use Adobe apps, and think that will be easier for me to stick with the same line of programs as I imagine the command and key short cuts could be very similar to those I already use, but at the end of the day I want to get in to what it is best and easier to work in, from start to end.

ciao

Ketch - you should give Premiere a go. We started as a Final Cut shop - but we have two Avids now - and we are getting deeper into Adobe everyday. We have not cut a feature film on Premiere yet - but we will soon - as a case study for testing and feedback - bottom line is that Avid, FCP and Premiere each have advantages and disadvantages. For After Effects heavy short form - I think people are CRAZY now to be using Premiere - and CS4 Photoshop integration with Encore is crazy slick - if you are using Adobe apps now - you should really start messing around with premiere - many of the "hot keys" are the same as FCP - it's actually a lot more "intuitive" than everyone says - folks have trouble with the fact the UI is a bit different -

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Ketch - you should give Premiere a go. We started as a Final Cut shop - but we have two Avids now - and we are getting deeper into Adobe everyday. We have not cut a feature film on Premiere yet - but we will soon - as a case study for testing and feedback - bottom line is that Avid, FCP and Premiere each have advantages and disadvantages. For After Effects heavy short form - I think people are CRAZY now to be using Premiere - and CS4 Photoshop integration with Encore is crazy slick - if you are using Adobe apps now - you should really start messing around with premiere - many of the "hot keys" are the same as FCP - it's actually a lot more "intuitive" than everyone says - folks have trouble with the fact the UI is a bit different -

Thanks for your input and the sharing of your experience with Adobe, Mark.

I have been playing all day with APP4 and do like it, obviously I have a long way in learning it as this is my first editing suite I lend my eyes on, had a copy of FCS2 but never used, so as I can't make comparison of workflow, I tough that sticking with Adobe will be better and easier for me, both for learning the program and for sharing files with Adobe programs such as AE, I'm glad to hear that some one like you and your company is using it as well, please let me know asap as you do a cut to Film with it as it is important as well, even so for the first two projects in the works I'll likely for strait to Digital, but since the Movie tethers with 2k or 4k digital projectors, I will surely need at some point to do a film out.


As far as the UI for me there will be no problems there as this will be the first one I learn

ciao

 

[conrad gaunt]

Conversion from RGB->YUV can result in up to 75% of your colour information vanishing. Conversion to YUV should happen last in the pipe IMO.. and YUV is the only floating-point format FCP uses (as far as I can tell), so thats FCP out!

Premiere, I like, but it's not as high quality at rendering as I'd like, but maybe adding Cineform Prospect 4k to the mix improves some of its weaknesses?

It would certainly improve the worksflow and storage if half the hype is true..

 

[Andrew J]

Premiere, I like, but it's not as high quality at rendering as I'd like, but maybe adding Cineform Prospect 4k to the mix improves some of its weaknesses?

Not high enough in what way? You can export an uncompressed file right? Or Dynamic Link the project to After Effects and output almost any format you want.

Not sure what you mean.

OTH if you had just Premiere and not AE then CineForm would be a good option too.