Prediction

[Jay A. Kelley]

I have no rational basis for this, but I am going to say it anyway.

I think Premiere Pro 6 could be the watershed moment for Adobe. For a little over a year, I have seen Adobe's communication with it's customer base become stronger and more consistant that it ever has. And with Apple laying it's HUGE egg with FCPX, I believe Adobe is positioned to really take on the world.

I watched the video of their CEO or president of the video division (don't remember the title), and he made it clear that they intend to become THE professional software package. That's a huge goal, but they seem to be moving in that direction.

With the movement of Davinci to Windows, the horrible slow down of FCP, and an already good track record of making notable improvements to Premiere... I think they know they can really kick it up a notch with Premiere 6.

David and the boys are very well aware of what is lacking in Premiere now, and they have been for some time. I for one do not think for a second they have been sitting on their hands.

I think 2012 could be the year of Adobe.

Jay

 

[Johnny Friday]

I sure hope so.....they are only ones i've seen open to our comments and working to satisfy us in post.....much like RED with RCX

 

[Colter Ripley]

hey man, I completely agree. I have extensive experience cutting for Broadcast spots, corporate videos and companies like Telus, Best Buy, CBC etc.

I really think Adobe can take it.

Regarding RED footage: I dragged and drop Epic footage onto the timeline and Boom! It was ready to edit. It's incredible, no transcoding, no modifying. You have to watch it back at 1/8th but there is absolutely no lag in playback and it's only a bit slow with scrubbing.

Plus with the AE connection, it's a no brainer.

It's tough for people to switch though, FCP still feels "pro" and Premiere doesn't quite yet (even though it has better options and workflow)

 

[Ben Holmes]

In the broadcast world, Adobe will have to achieve something special to counter Avid's new release. MC6 means switchers can carry on using all their existing hardware, and go back to the industry standard - don't forget most companies switched FROM Avid in the first place for cost reasons.

Adobe needs to make good on the promise of CUDA. It's simply too limited at the moment for normal editing, and FCPX, with all it's flaws, embarrasses it in performance terms - when applying filters for example - except for the odd exception. I admit I have not used it recently with RED footage, and I'm sure for RED-centric operations, it's a good deal.

MC6 is no great shakes on the performance front, but at least it's open now - and like muscle memory, the pro market will drift back to it. In my part of the market, not one company is heading to Premier, even though several considered it when FCP7 died.

Personally I find either option unappealing - but the world moves on, and so shall I. From January all our systems will carry FCP7, PPro (production suite) and Avid MC6.

 

[paulherrin]

just sat through an adobe presentation... they are committed to playing nice with others and listening to what customers want and what works best for them. even if they don't have some huge vision beyond that (which i believe they do) - that's a pretty good philosophy. i like it. go adobe.

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

I have a friend who learned the hard way that Avid is still protecting it's hardware.. He's in the closed Caption business, and found out that the 3rd party card would not support closed caption, but the native AVID card would..

Avid will need to release all these little kinks if it's serious about opening up.

I hope they do.

Jay

 

[Paul Russell]

I edit some jobs on Premiere and it renders beautifully, but I wish it was as easy to use as Vegas

 

[Joel Kaye]

I have no rational basis for this, but I am going to say it anyway.

I think Premiere Pro 6 could be the watershed moment for Adobe.
I think 2012 could be the year of Adobe.

I think you're right in regards to consumer and lower end pro video specifically. AVID has Pro Tools though. That combo is going to keep AVID safe with a bunch of higher end users.

Adobe's deal with Speedgrade is interesting. In the meantime the Resolve workflow appears to now work.

It's been the "Year of Adobe" almost every year for a long time in a lot of other pro apps.

I think the more amazing things could be the future of InDesign. In 2-3 years many or most books will be a multimedia book that plays on your tablet and downloads from Amazon and iTunes and Google. They all be laid out in InDesign taking elements from Premiere, After Effects, Photoshop, Audition etc. The books will "smart scale" and sense tablet orientation. And it'll be easy to do a print run of the book from the same source.

Yeah - they are going to rule the world. The entire application suite is so strong.

 

[Bruce Allen]

Well, the ball is in Adobe's court.

I am skeptical because they have been kinda twiddling their thumbs with After Effects for years.

They could have made it into a Flame-killer anytime in the last decade... but noooo: it always seems like there are 5 really hard-working guys on the After Effects team and the rest have been siphoned off to the 995-man team working on how to make PDFs load slower in Acrobat.

Premiere is... well, put it this way: I noticed I was low on space on my system SSD drive - and discovered Premiere had stored 98GB of temporary files in Library -> Application Support... and I had only used it for two projects on this computer.

What sort of disrespectful BS attitude towards the user is that?

I think they can do it for sure, once they start to genuinely respect the user.

Premiere is, paradoxically, too cheap, I think. I think that if they charged a little more for it, they could start to afford to hire guys to do the high-end stuff we need.

Avid is infuriating sometimes with 3rd party interfaces etc... but then they seem to actually care about features and workflow I need. I am cutting stuff right now with it on a little iMac and it PURRS. Doesn't use up half of my 256gb SSD with frikkin' temporary files either. It's polite.

So I guess all of those people buying overpriced Mojo DX cards or whatever is paying the salary of a few coders who really care about pros, who add Artist Color support, or mixing surface support, or Script Sync...

One day, PremAvidFcpX would be great IMHO

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[J Davis]

for non r3d projects they need smart rendering because its a pain for any long projects right now

you have a 20 minute timeline and the client asks for one small change and you need to render that whole timeline again !

what a pity adobe didn't snatch up cineform before go-pro

 

[Brian Merlen]

hey

hey

with all the confusion on the third maybe you guys didn't see the Avid press release? Adobe is already a great suite, but I think Avid is going to try to give them a run for their 64 bit money! I really do like P pro tho, it has served me well since CS5 came out and I love a lot of the features! Like the estimated file size of the deliverable prior to encoding it to that codec when your going through possible exporting options! With FCP7 I would be stuck encoding the same thing 10 times to try and get it to fit the way I wanted, not too compressed that I would waste a disc but not too big to fit on it either. Lots of little reasons to love P pro, but that was one I found particularly helpful...along with the whole 64 bit thing. Its funny I was so pissed when CS5.5 was a paid update, but then FCPX came out and I was like "oh man why am I complaining about CS5.5, at least they didn't do what Apple did"

I might start cutting for a house that uses FCP7 this week, oh man I am gonna miss p pro and Avid AMA when I am sitting there rendering for half my shifts...:mad5:

 

[Subhadip Sen]

for non r3d projects they need smart rendering because its a pain for any long projects right now

you have a 20 minute timeline and the client asks for one small change and you need to render that whole timeline again !

what a pity adobe didn't snatch up cineform before go-pro

I have edited on Premiere Pro CS5 with XDCAM, DSLR and AVCHD. Everything is native and real-time at full-res. If you make a small change you see it right away. I am not sure what I am missing?! It's not as smart as Vegas Pro or now FCP X that you could change things during playback, but it's enough, I think.

 

[Bruce Allen]

I have edited on Premiere Pro CS5 with XDCAM, DSLR and AVCHD. Everything is native and real-time at full-res. If you make a small change you see it right away. I am not sure what I am missing?! It's not as smart as Vegas Pro or now FCP X that you could change things during playback, but it's enough, I think.

Well... when you have a bunch of VFX shots sent over in Animation codec into something that you can edit with, which codec do you go to? When you do some fancy color correction and filters that are not realtime, what codec do you render to? If you want to take a feature film's worth of dailies on a laptop with you, what efficient editing codec can you transcode everything into?

This is a useful thing and if Premiere didn't lack it, Cineform wouldn't have made it their business model for a while to offer solutions to this very problem.

Avid and Apple didn't develop DNxHD and ProRes for fun!

for non r3d projects they need smart rendering because its a pain for any long projects right now

you have a 20 minute timeline and the client asks for one small change and you need to render that whole timeline again !

Yep, in Avid you don't have this problem. Plus you can just render specific video tracks. Everything is like an adjustment layer on top of the other, so if I make a change to something on V5, I don't have to re-render V1-V4 and it's quick. That said, it is so fast that I seldom need to render, but there is always the odd effect that needs it.

what a pity adobe didn't snatch up cineform before go-pro

Agree. Although maybe GoPro will do something crazy like build a 3K RAW-shooting camera for $3K with built-in Cineform and make things more fun If they just sit on the Cineform stuff it will be very sad.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Subhadip Sen]

Well... when you have a bunch of VFX shots sent over in Animation codec into something that you can edit with, which codec do you go to? When you do some fancy color correction and filters that are not realtime, what codec do you render to? If you want to take a feature film's worth of dailies on a laptop with you, what efficient editing codec can you transcode everything into?

This is a useful thing and if Premiere didn't lack it, Cineform wouldn't have made it their business model for a while to offer solutions to this very problem.

Avid and Apple didn't develop DNxHD and ProRes for fun!

I see, Animation is a valid exception. There are no shortage of very fast lossless codecs on Windows. If you are on Mac or into lossy codecs like DNxHD and ProRes, both DNxHD and GoPro-Cineform are free and work very well with Premiere Pro. Personally, I find Ultra Fast preset X264 intra-frame far superior to these codecs in performance and compression. I can understand how applying plugins and filters will lead to slowdowns, that's true.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

I'm working with PremierPro a lot. Its main advantages for us are the ability to read R3Ds natively, synch audio via TC and export a timeline via XML to Smoke. It's also great for RT simulations regarding DVE-fx such as split screens etc... PremierPro is a good offline NLE in a Red based workflow.

Its weakest point is its performance in tape-based workflows. Here PremierPro shows badly its prosumer roots. Personally I rarely need an SR but post house use them all the time. I'm still on CS 5.3 and have no Kona support. Maybe that this improved recently. Tape is not going away as quickly as some may have predicted, on the contrary. As long as Premier Pro is not supporting this part of the market, post houses don't consider it as an alternative to FCP or AVID.

AE on the other hand is already considered as a cheap alternative to Flame in commercial land. Have been AE workplaces hidden somewhere in the backyards to support the flashy Flame suites made shrinking budgets them now an alternative for smaller TVCs. You can now book AE suites with all the bells and whistles for client attended finishing. I think that is a great achievement.

On the NLE side the new AVID 6.0 Version now allows non-Avid hardware to collaborate with the software. I haven't tested it yet myself but if Mediacomposer 6.0 works as well with Aja and BM as FCP 7 does than I can imagine that Premier Pro has again a hard time.

Hans

 

[Simon Dunne]

They actively seek to listen, then take on board (fast!) what they've heard.

http://www.broadcastnow.co.uk/technology/adobe-in-multiplatform-boost/5034334.article

 

[David McGavran]

They actively seek to listen, then take on board (fast!) what they've heard.

http://www.broadcastnow.co.uk/technology/adobe-in-multiplatform-boost/5034334.article

I love listening to all the comments in here... We have no problems with the fact that Avid wants to step up the 64 plate, we have been here for a while. We are going to keep listening to all our professional and broadcast editors and try our best to keep making the best video editor in the market. We love where we are at and hopefully you guys will love where we are going.

Keep giving us great feedback and we will keep trying to use that to help your lives better.

Cheers

Dave

 

[Santiago Marti]

Well, the ball is in Adobe's court.

I am skeptical because they have been kinda twiddling their thumbs with After Effects for years.

They could have made it into a Flame-killer anytime in the last decade... but noooo: it always seems like there are 5 really hard-working guys on the After Effects team and the rest have been siphoned off to the 995-man team working on how to make PDFs load slower in Acrobat.

Premiere is... well, put it this way: I noticed I was low on space on my system SSD drive - and discovered Premiere had stored 98GB of temporary files in Library -> Application Support... and I had only used it for two projects on this computer.

What sort of disrespectful BS attitude towards the user is that?

I think they can do it for sure, once they start to genuinely respect the user.

Premiere is, paradoxically, too cheap, I think. I think that if they charged a little more for it, they could start to afford to hire guys to do the high-end stuff we need.

Avid is infuriating sometimes with 3rd party interfaces etc... but then they seem to actually care about features and workflow I need. I am cutting stuff right now with it on a little iMac and it PURRS. Doesn't use up half of my 256gb SSD with frikkin' temporary files either. It's polite.

So I guess all of those people buying overpriced Mojo DX cards or whatever is paying the salary of a few coders who really care about pros, who add Artist Color support, or mixing surface support, or Script Sync...

One day, PremAvidFcpX would be great IMHO

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Bruce, temporary files shouldn't be on your system drive, but on your project drive. That means you stored your project in the system drive.

http://blogs.adobe.com/VideoRoad/2011/08/a-prores-workflow-end-to-end.html here you can read how to achieve an end to end proress workflow on a mac, it is not a workaround, it is how it should be made.

Personally i don't have the need to use intermediate codecs, i just throw anything and Ppro will handle it, i don't have the problems described above. I don't have to render everything if i make one change to a clip, in fact i barely have the need to render, even on my laptop. I use a two year old dell precission mobile workstation and i am gonna change it for a new one. Scratch six does work really well in the same workstation at 1/4 res with everything in real time. I personally like avid but every add on they made feels like a patch on a really old foundation. That's why i don't like AMA. I still prefer to work on a 4.5 timeline and output at full res or go back and forth with AE or Audition as needed.

A lot of critics to all the NLE's being discussed in this forum usually come from people that doen't know well what they are using or from people that extrapolate one nle workflow to another, and that doesn't work in my opinion. You also have lots of people using underpowered machines to do heavy work on them, and that shouldn't work also. Really, you shouldn't use a 15" macbook pro for serious work, you should spend between 3.5k and 5k to have a decent mobile workstation. At least 12 or 24 gigs of ram to start talking seriously about realtime r3d editing. That is why avid and apple invented their intermediate codecs, to overcome their software limitations. Now those limitations will be gone with 64bit and we should see how these codecs start to become obsolete.

I am not saying that Ppro is perfect, but all my recent projects were originated on Red, Alexa and Canon, and i never had any problem editing any codec from those cameras. I clearly i didn't have any of the problems mentioned above, like my system drive full or having to render all the time, so you should check your workflow cause maybe you are doing something wrong.

Santiago Marti.
RED M-X #4215, RPPs, EPIC X on its way.

 

[Bruce Allen]

I love listening to all the comments in here... We have no problems with the fact that Avid wants to step up the 64 plate, we have been here for a while. We are going to keep listening to all our professional and broadcast editors and try our best to keep making the best video editor in the market. We love where we are at and hopefully you guys will love where we are going.

Keep giving us great feedback and we will keep trying to use that to help your lives better.

Cheers

Dave

Dave, it is WONDERFUL to have you here.

Personally, I suddenly became a lot more interested in Premiere this week... because Michael P left Avid!

I give Avid one month to get a new guy on REDUSER, posting "Hi, I'm here to continue the great tradition of MichaelP in helping REDUSERs work with our products. Please let me know how Avid can be here to help you"
...if they don't get an official Avid representative here pronto, It's a very good sign for me to start looking more at other companies... who actually bother to have representatives on this forum!

BTW, the open, friendly "we work with everyone" thing is great. At the moment, Premiere doesn't have the offline editing features I need, or the control surface support I need, or the stereo finishing features I need, or the DI / vfx editing / online tools I need. But the moment you guys make a product that kicks ass at just one thing, I can jump to Premiere for that - because being open and able to exchange projects with the other editing packages (good idea hiring the Automatic Duck guys!) means that if Premiere is better at just one part of the process, we can take projects into it for that. That becomes your beachhead into the pro editor's workflow - and then just expand from there until they are like "hey, let's just do the whole thing in Premiere!".

I see, Animation is a valid exception. There are no shortage of very fast lossless codecs on Windows.

This valid exception is the main codec that After Effects guys use to render stuff out!

RE - fast lossless codecs on Windows: are they 10 bit? Is there a low-data-rate version and a high-data-rate online version? Do they support stereo? Also, I don't want to install a codec that only works on one platform, especially if most people I work with use Mac.

If you are on Mac or into lossy codecs like DNxHD and ProRes, both DNxHD and GoPro-Cineform are free and work very well with Premiere Pro.

Is Cineform fully free now? Anyway, Adobe should work with those companies (Avid or Cineform) to make them install by default with Premiere.

What's awesome about Avid is that I can just give a guy with a drive and a project file... and the whole project will load up with zero re-linking, zero installing of codecs. Nothing. Even if they're not using the same version I am!

Personally, I find Ultra Fast preset X264 intra-frame far superior to these codecs in performance and compression. I can understand how applying plugins and filters will lead to slowdowns, that's true.

X264 is great... but it's not 10 bit, it doesn't support alpha, and it takes up too much CPU time.

If Adobe wants to contribute to the open source X264 community and make an editing version with these features, that'd be awesome too.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Bruce Allen]

Bruce, temporary files shouldn't be on your system drive, but on your project drive. That means you stored your project in the system drive.

Why would I want to store temporary files in the same place as I put my project file?

Project files belong on a drive that is backed up regularly (my system drive SSD, which is backed up to my RAID 6 every night).
Temporary files belong on a drive that is not backed up (I have a scratch RAID 0 volume for just that).

Why the hell would you want the two things on the same drive?

This is a basic editing principle and should apply to all editing software.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com