Post-Production Cost Assessment

[Alexis Vanier]

Hi there,

I'm working on the pre-pre production of a project I'd very much like to be shot with the RED ONE, but I have a bit of trouble figuring out how to dispatch and organize several steps of post-production, and by extension assessing cost. My main concern is how to distribute responsibility.

Here's the picture (workload). The we're looking at a 1,5mil$ production, two camera shoot (one of the main characters is a twelve years old kid), shooting a total of about an hour or two of footage per day. Stuff is shot on location, more or less remote. Finish is most likely film-out with a respectable DI. There will be some VFX integration shots (3D monsters) and compositing.

My concerns are the following. I'm first wondering how to handle dailies. Should I shift that to a DIT (get him to handle it, hire people and orchestrate the thing) to keep it closer to the set and reduce turnaround (if it does) or should my rushes go out to a post house and be turned into dailies and brought back? Keep in mind I'm also trying to figure this cost-wise.

Parallel to that, I'm wondering whether all the data handling should be kept 'in-house' or be sent outside, considering we don't know if who our editor will be and if he'll even be affiliated with the aforementioned post-house. We also don't know if the post-house will be handling the VFX shots.

I just love the idea of using flash cards like film rolls. Get a bucketful of 'em, shoot them, can them, get a PA to get them to the post house (or wherever), see them the next morning. Cost-effectiveness?

Your input would be very much appreciated.

EDIT : Even though I'm based in Montréal, the film is to be shot in the southern-central US (so far).

 

[David_Cox]

Hello,

A couple of points in no particular order…

Flash cards weren’t designed to be particularly robust, so I wouldn’t be that confident storing the rushes of a production on them long term.

Not having access to your rushes until the next day is very “filmic” :biggrin: , but it would be much better to be able to see both the image and meta data of your shoot on set.

Both those issues point to a DIT on set. This role performs a few useful tasks. Firstly and very importantly, they can tell you that what you just shot is technically good, the frame rate is right etc etc. RED Cameras are computers and occasionally need a reset. After reset, the camera can reset it’s clip counter, meaning that you will start creating new takes with exactly the same filenames as other clips. If nothing else, this is a pain for your conform / DI. So the DIT can save your post surprises here. Also, they can convert to quicktimes, create DVD’s of rushes, show different set ups cut together to help with continuity etc.

Most importantly though, the DIT will ensure the safety of your data. Remember, as you shoot you exchange dollars for data bits, so it’s good if a few of them stick to the hard drives! Our recommended workflow is to ensure that the data is in at least two places ASAP. For example, fill a flash, copy to the DIT’s local big store and an external removable drive. At the end if the day, send the removable drive somewhere else – eg the post house or a local “big disk” to copy off the drive and return to the set. This way, you have all of your rushes on set with the DIT and a backup of your shoot up until yesterday safely far, far away.

As an owner of a post house, I would always recommend getting the post house on board as soon as possible. Advice and pre-shoot support is usually free. Dealing with surprise formats and unexpected shooting issues usually isn’t. Remember many post houses haven’t heard of RED. Others have but haven’t worked out their post work flow. It’s not that easy to use professional tools that provide the post-power that we are all used to. Here’s a good question to ask a potential post house to see if they really know about RED. Ask them whether your RED images would look better as a result of a 4K post workflow. If they say yes, they haven’t worked out that the term 4K when associated with a camera sensor is different to the term 4K when associated with a post workflow.

Happy shooting.

 

[Jeff Coatney]

Here's the picture (workload). The we're looking at a 1,5mil$ production, two camera shoot (one of the main characters is a twelve years old kid), shooting a total of about an hour or two of footage per day. Stuff is shot on location, more or less remote. Finish is most likely film-out with a respectable DI. There will be some VFX integration shots (3D monsters) and compositing.

My concerns are the following. I'm first wondering how to handle dailies. Should I shift that to a DIT (get him to handle it, hire people and orchestrate the thing) to keep it closer to the set and reduce turnaround (if it does) or should my rushes go out to a post house and be turned into dailies and brought back? Keep in mind I'm also trying to figure this cost-wise.

Parallel to that, I'm wondering whether all the data handling should be kept 'in-house' or be sent outside, considering we don't know if who our editor will be and if he'll even be affiliated with the aforementioned post-house. We also don't know if the post-house will be handling the VFX shots.

I just love the idea of using flash cards like film rolls. Get a bucketful of 'em, shoot them, can them, get a PA to get them to the post house (or wherever), see them the next morning. Cost-effectiveness?

Your input would be very much appreciated.

EDIT : Even though I'm based in Montréal, the film is to be shot in the southern-central US (so far).

Flash cards are not currently practical for that type of use yet. Perhaps soon.

Budget for a DIT and a Camera Tech (Or a very RED experienced 1st AC). With two cameras and 2 hours of footage per day one person will not be able to do both without going into Overtime on set. An experienced DIT will manage the download so that wrap out at the end of the day will be on-time. You will not save money by cutting the DIT, because if there are any snafu's to deal with in any one area, the other job won't get done and you'll fall behind.

Beyond doing your preliminary grading in RedCine, Quicktime dailies are actually generated by the camera as you shoot. The DIT will copy the Quicktimes onto a separate drive for hand-off to the editor, director, DP and Dept Heads on their own laptops as the day progresses for later review and use by the Script Supervisor. In fact this is one of the best features of the RED. The dailies can also augment continuity for Art dept, Hair, Make-Up and Wardrobe. They should actually be called "Hourlies" instead of dailies.

I would budget for a triplicate back-up. Three Firewire 800 drives plus the Continuity (dailies) Drive (Only one should be managed by the DIT but you can easily clone it to a second when the AD calls wrap). Important note: Test the Firewire 800 connection to make sure it runs at the right speed. Make Editorial, Camera and Production each responsible for a drive at the end of the day.

You know, I could write a book here, and these guys have heard it all before. Just call me... I'll PM you with the number.

 

[M Most]

Beyond doing your preliminary grading in RedCine, Quicktime dailies are actually generated by the camera as you shoot. The DIT will copy the Quicktimes onto a separate drive for hand-off to the editor, director, DP and Dept Heads on their own laptops as the day progresses for later review and use by the Script Supervisor.

That won't work unless they're also being given copies of the R3d files (the QT files are QT reference files, and require the full R3d file to be present in order to play anything), and unless they all happen to have Intel Macs (because the QT reference files won't play on anything else, at least at this point in time).

 

[Alexis Vanier]

Flash cards weren’t designed to be particularly robust, so I wouldn’t be that confident storing the rushes of a production on them long term.

I think I was misunderstood. My question is more : What do I gain from having the first backup done on set? Couldn't I just shoot say 20 cards in my day, and get them to the post house at the end of the day? Then once they're copied, verified and formatted, they're sent back to me on the next day to be filled again.

I knew I wanted a DIT on board from the very start. I was wondering whether I would make him physically responsible of data handling or not.

That won't work unless they're also being given copies of the R3d files (the QT files are QT reference files, and require the full R3d file to be present in order to play anything), and unless they all happen to have Intel Macs (because the QT reference files won't play on anything else, at least at this point in time).

That's right. I can't just shove 120 gigs of data on a DVD and give it to everyone every day... for many reasons other than the sheer size of the data!

Not having access to your rushes until the next day is very “filmic” :biggrin: , but it would be much better to be able to see both the image and meta data of your shoot on set.

I believe the whole point of dailies is that you don't see them when you're shooting them. I like the idea of collectively reviewing our work in a proper viewing environment every once in a while. And again, the footage would need to be converted unless it's played directly from an R3D copy on a computer into a projector. Which is in a way another question. Is that the best way to do it? Rendering benefits from a 1st light whereas the raw R3D is more likely just that... raw(er). When should that step be done? By the DIT on set? Isn't that too much of a workload? Building a video village, copying footage, verifying copies, working the visuals with the DoP, grading on set (?!?), and troubleshooting the camera. Grading on set sticks out like a sore thumb on that list!

 

[Damon Meledones]

Having the cards downloaded as you shoot them allows the DIT to verify critical focus 1:1 at 4K, for shots where it really counts. You can also do a "video assist playback," so to speak, if Art or another department needs it for continuity.

When we have a separate camera tech and DIT, the DIT will do a quick grade of one shot from each set-up with the DoP on-set. The settings from that grade are saved and passed along to the post-house, or whoever is doing the dailies, so they know "what it's supposed to look like." Depending on the speed of your workstation and shooting, the DIT may also be able to transcode your dailies in the background, with the FCP Log & Transfer plug-in for example. This might be something you can have a computer savvy PA do as well.

 

[Jeff Coatney]

I think I was misunderstood. My question is more : What do I gain from having the first backup done on set? Couldn't I just shoot say 20 cards in my day, and get them to the post house at the end of the day? Then once they're copied, verified and formatted, they're sent back to me on the next day to be filled again.

I knew I wanted a DIT on board from the very start. I was wondering whether I would make him physically responsible of data handling or not.



That's right. I can't just shove 120 gigs of data on a DVD and give it to everyone every day... for many reasons other than the sheer size of the data!



I believe the whole point of dailies is that you don't see them when you're shooting them. I like the idea of collectively reviewing our work in a proper viewing environment every once in a while. And again, the footage would need to be converted unless it's played directly from an R3D copy on a computer into a projector. Which is in a way another question. Is that the best way to do it? Rendering benefits from a 1st light whereas the raw R3D is more likely just that... raw(er). When should that step be done? By the DIT on set? Isn't that too much of a workload? Building a video village, copying footage, verifying copies, working the visuals with the DoP, grading on set (?!?), and troubleshooting the camera. Grading on set sticks out like a sore thumb on that list!

The cards are close to $200 a piece. A three day supply would cost $12,000. You said the location is somewhat remote, so if you only had 20 of them you'd be out of business if the post house failed to get them downloaded and back to you in 12 hours.

The DIT is physically responsible for the Data.

The Quicktime Dailies generated on set are not reference QT's, they're self-contained movies. The DIT makes them from the Ref's generated by the camera, so you're not paying a service bureau to make them. For focus, exposure and lighting you'd look at the R3D's in Red Cine at the download station on set and the dailies you could take on your MacBook Pro back to the hotel.

You won't be doing a final grading on set. But you can determine the look the footage will have when it is viewed by the director, the star, and the producer and believe me, you will want to do that. If your budget is truly $1.5 million, I would think you would want to save as much money as possible for a proper DI at a post house when you're done. Getting the DIT to render Quicktime dailies for you on set and looking at the first mag's footage in Red Cine and trying out different grades on the fly is a great way to maximize the dollars you spend in your DI session.

 

[M Most]

The DIT is physically responsible for the Data.

The Quicktime Dailies generated on set are not reference QT's, they're self-contained movies. The DIT makes them from the Ref's generated by the camera, so you're not paying a service bureau to make them. For focus, exposure and lighting you'd look at the R3D's in Red Cine at the download station on set and the dailies you could take on your MacBook Pro back to the hotel.

If a DIT is doing all of the file copying/backup/verification, rendering to Quicktime files, creating distributable versions of those QT files, and showing files to a director and/or DP in Redcine, I would call him or her a computer operator, because doing all of those things leaves him or her very little time to actually deal with the camera.

 

[David_Cox]

If a DIT is doing all of the file copying/backup/verification, rendering to Quicktime files, creating distributable versions of those QT files, and showing files to a director and/or DP in Redcine, I would call him or her a computer operator, because doing all of those things leaves him or her very little time to actually deal with the camera.

Although that sounds like a lot of work, most of the those functions are a couple of clicks and a background process. If the director / DOP really wanted to take QT's back to their hotel at the end of the day, a second PC just doing background rendering would help a good deal.

Shooting isn't that fast, so the DIT should have plenty of time for chatting, eating and other camera duties

You are right in that it is more of a computer operator role, although that is perhaps a little disrespectful to the importance of the role. I wouldn't say that a DIT necessarily replaces a camera assistant, but is an extension of video assist - although it would only need to be that so save budget.

 

[Jeff Brown]

And that's exactly how it will go. It doesn't take long to pick up the menus on the RED and shoot OK and as soon as the Beta glitches are gone (and therefore no specialist knowledge of these forums required) there will be little need for the DIT to be at the side of the camera all day. Their role will be just as descibed above...

regards

Jeff Brown
RED708

 

[M Most]

Although that sounds like a lot of work, most of the those functions are a couple of clicks and a background process. If the director / DOP really wanted to take QT's back to their hotel at the end of the day, a second PC just doing background rendering would help a good deal.

Shooting isn't that fast, so the DIT should have plenty of time for chatting, eating and other camera duties

You are right in that it is more of a computer operator role, although that is perhaps a little disrespectful to the importance of the role. I wouldn't say that a DIT necessarily replaces a camera assistant, but is an extension of video assist - although it would only need to be that so save budget.

Well, I certainly wouldn't want to be the person being called to the set to tweak a camera setting, or deal with video village, or figure out a faulty cable issue, while I'm back in the truck trying to figure out why Redcine just crapped out, Compressor keeps failing, and I have no way of making those Quicktime files you seem to think are so quick and easy and require no attention.

Besides, DIT means Digital Imaging Technician. That title implies that the responsibility, the knowledge base, and the skill set are centered around the camera and what it feeds, and how to get the most out of it and/or satisfy creative requests, not copying and duplicating files and being responsible for file format conversions. That's why on a union crew, it's a Local 600 job, not a Local 695 job. If this is not the case, the job is not a DIT, it's something else.

 

[David_Cox]

I fear we would be drifting even more off topic if we started a union debate about job titles, although that is an issue that will have to be crossed as roles evolve. Not really for this forum though!

I talk from experience creating files from RED by the way, so there is no "seem to think" about the work flow.

There are a lot of issues to deal with as there are for all forms of digital, non-tape photography. Thats why I commented that your dismissal of a DIT as being a "computer operator" was a little disrespectful. Those who underestimate this role or try to skimp on budget and ignore it are going to loose their film, sooner or later.

Just trying to provide helpful advice from experience :wink:

 

[Chris Parker]

I totally agree with mmost. Creating QuickTime dailies is more than a few clicks, if sound is involved. Unless you don't apply any looks to them and just compress the camera proxies through Compressor.

But what if the editor is AVID? This won't work then.

I think the position of DIT is a misnomer, as it is more about data management than Image enhancement, considering the camera shoots RAW. This position CAN be done as an extension of video assist, but only when budget is not there to separate the two. We usually send out one Data Manager, and one video assist operator.

As mmost says, you don't want to have to run around set moving monitors, checking cables as fresh cards are being thrown at you. Timing usually dictates that fresh cards are ready for download at the exact same time as a a set changeove is happening, meaning two bodies are ideal for these two positions.

The data manager totally replaces the film lab on your budget, and if he/she is creating QuickTime dailies, it also replaces your dailies house. You are already saving lots of money there, so don't squeeze too much, as this is an important job that requires much attention paid to it.

By the way, we are in Toronto and our data management systems are available with trained operators for RED shoots, and we'd be happy to travel to Montreal for gigs if needed. I just completed a job in Montreal, Quebec City, and Vancouver actually. Cheers.

 

[Jeff Coatney]

If a DIT is doing all of the file copying/backup/verification, rendering to Quicktime files, creating distributable versions of those QT files, and showing files to a director and/or DP in Redcine, I would call him or her a computer operator, because doing all of those things leaves him or her very little time to actually deal with the camera.

The DIT should NOT deal with the Camera. That's two separate jobs. Especially critical on a low-budget movie. You want dedicated professionals on both ends of the equation or you could get into a real bind. Nobody benefits from the One-Guy-Can-Do-It-All way of thinking, especially the producers. Movies that shoot RED save so much money that having two people on set is easily affordable for even modest budgets. We really should be thinking about what's best to do the job, not what's best to get the job.

The last thing a producer wants to see is fifty people standing around doing nothing while one guy runs back and forth like crazy from the camera to the download station trying to solve two minor problems. This type of thing is going on right now on sets shooting with this camera and I'm hearing the complaints from people that make the decisions on what camera to shoot with. The camera tech should be an AC, IMO. Albeit one with lots of RED experience. Some RED Owner/Operators simply don't know how to behave themselves on a film set and we're hearing some pretty wild stories.

As for the DIT, I am seeing that position evolve into one of greater importance on set. Before doing the job myself, I would have predicted those duties would be absorbed into the standard production paradigm. Now I'm making VFX reference shots at 4K while they're still shooting actors. It fits perfectly with my background and the Directors and the Producers love it. One of the producers was able to get a bid on FX for a shot after lunch. I emailed the reference to the FX house and they started working on the shot before we wrapped for the day. I'll see if I can post some of them here.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Hi Jeff. I tend to agree, BUT I also see that the DIT isn't going away anytime soon...

I've been quite surprised with the very bad results that have come back when I've let the camera out on its own (on unpaid testing).

Also, to back up and prepare the data for the relevant workflow and online/offline is sorta "not very time consuming" and quite a routine task, but it is by far more of a specialist knowledge than what I would have thought.

Basically I see:
A set/workflow WITH a DIT = easy going and no troubles (to the extent that one start to think: What the heck is HE doing here anyway...)
A set/workflow without a DIT = a big mess, even without taking all the quirks and beta stuff into consideration.

Also I see that the producers save 1-2 days in post pr shootingday, if things are done properly.

Thus: The DIT will stay and be a highly valued part of any production for quite a while...

I do tend to think that the DIT should handle the camera setups and the workflow though, so the DP and AC can consentrate on their business as usual.

On some shoots, there may be use for a separate camera tech, but I haven't really seen that yet...

 

[M Most]

The DIT should NOT deal with the Camera. That's two separate jobs.

No, the DIT's job IS to deal with the camera. That is the definition of the term, and although you may not want to talk about union positions, the fact is that the term "DIT" was coined by Local 600 specifically to define someone who deals with the technical aspects of a digital camera. If you want to redefine it, I suppose I can't stop you, but to me that seems rather similar to Red's deciding unilaterally that the term "telecine" now refers to color correction and not a film to tape transfer process, as it actually does. Maybe next week we can decide that the word "dog" actually defines any four legged domestic creature, so we can now refer to cats as dogs.

Terminology is there for a reason. If you're talking about data wrangling, that's a data wrangler, or perhaps a loader, or perhaps something else, but what is it NOT is a DIT.

As for the DIT, I am seeing that position evolve into one of greater importance on set. Before doing the job myself, I would have predicted those duties would be absorbed into the standard production paradigm. Now I'm making VFX reference shots at 4K while they're still shooting actors. It fits perfectly with my background and the Directors and the Producers love it. One of the producers was able to get a bid on FX for a shot after lunch. I emailed the reference to the FX house and they started working on the shot before we wrapped for the day. I'll see if I can post some of them here.

Well, that's very nice, and clearly useful. But it's not part of the definition of the job of DIT. Playback operator, perhaps.

 

[Chris Parker]

again, i agree with mmost. people on this forum throw around the term DIT for a job that is NOT a DIT. data wrangler, or red tech, or hell, even red DIT if you must. but be clear here. a DIT is a Digital Image Technician. they will paint the picture. RED shoots don't need one, as the camera shoots RAW. they do need a very qualified data wrangler, or Red tech, though.

 

[Jeff Coatney]

No, the DIT's job IS to deal with the camera. That is the definition of the term, and although you may not want to talk about union positions, the fact is that the term "DIT" was coined by Local 600 specifically to define someone who deals with the technical aspects of a digital camera. If you want to redefine it, I suppose I can't stop you, but to me that seems rather similar to Red's deciding unilaterally that the term "telecine" now refers to color correction and not a film to tape transfer process, as it actually does. Maybe next week we can decide that the word "dog" actually defines any four legged domestic creature, so we can now refer to cats as dogs.

Terminology is there for a reason. If you're talking about data wrangling, that's a data wrangler, or perhaps a loader, or perhaps something else, but what is it NOT is a DIT.

Well, that's very nice, and clearly useful. But it's not part of the definition of the job of DIT. Playback operator, perhaps.

You construct an excellent Strawman Argument, my captious friend! Well done!

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Mike is right in his definition of a DIT. Cameras like the Varicam and Sony 900 essentially have paint boxes in them and I have seen DITs really get the most out of these cameras by "painting" and checking on scopes. They are what their name implies, a digital imaging technician.

Does RED need something similar? Well, maybe. Look at all of the confusion surrounding exposure of this camera. I suppose as Build 16 rolls out and everyone gets a grasp on how to expose properly so you give yourself the best image for post processing, then perhaps the role would evolve.

But a Data Management Technician is vital. There's very little room for error in this role. If you screw up and lose data, especially on big shoots, not only do you screw up that project, but you feed the fear that many producers still have about tapeless media. So, I think we will see a lot of importance placed on this role, and it's union definitions will become refined and implemented.

There's a lot of cost cutting throughout the industry, that's no secret. But this is one area where great caution should be used because you can get yourself into a world of trouble if you take it too lightly or try to have someone do this role and five others. There will be a costly mistake made at some point.

 

[Trevor Meier]

I'll chime in, as I've worked through this with several large productions up to the eight-figure range.

For a lower budget, you are essentially replacing the lab.

What we are doing is building data carts that live on set and at post, each with a function. The on set cart provides immediate backup of mags to a RAID, two transport drives, and LTO-3.

For some shows the on-set cart also creates quicktime renders from the 1K proxies, generated using a "look" from the basic in-camera tools (set up with the DP during camera tests and tweaked over the first few days). If the DP wants something more radical, the cart operator exports a TIFF frame and gives it to the DP who grades it in Color (or tool of choice), and sends the color file/LUT to post as a reference for the Online.

The camera look file generation and data cart operation (including transfers, tape backup, proxy rendering, and logging) is handled by a data manager. As this job is "the lab", he doesn't do much else. Generally we try to get the first ACs well trained in the camera before production begins so they can handle the menus etc. We (a rental company - InspiredCinema.com) also usually provide a camera tech for the first few days since the system is so new for most crews.


The second cart lives at post. It is a small render farm, and essentially acts as a RED tape deck. All of the shows we've done so far render circle takes from the full 4K layer to either ProRes, Uncompressed or DPX. They use these files for QC (watched on a calibrated HD monitor), VFX pulls, and in one case they are using 1080 ProRes files for both QC and "offline" (with an eventual conform & DI in DPX-land).

Rendering from the 4K layer to 1080/2k ProRes does give the benefit of seeing the full quality of the footage before the online, and a very nice looking offline, even if you don't intend to online with ProRes. The downside is needing a render farm to do it. But, until the SDK is released it's the only legitimate way to do a full QC on your footage if the show needs it.

The second cart can be operated by an assistant editor, as part of their capture workstation.


So to answer your question... you can get away with essentially a DIT/1st AC/assistant editor structure if a) your DIT is good with computers, b) your 1st AC has been trained on the RED, and c) your assistant editor can handle the new workflows that come with a data-centric camera. In the end you're not spending any more on personnel or post than an HD show.