Possibility to use 5K Mysterium-X Epic with 6K Dragon Epic for 3D?

[D Fuller]

I spoke to another DOP, same question on why we can't we down sample the FF5K to 4K on the camera.

As Gunleik says above, because it wouldn't be raw any more, and the raw (r3d) recording is a big part of what makes the camera so good. If you down sample, you no longer have raw data.

That being said, the camera produces very good downsampled 1080 video. Just record what comes out of the sdi port if that's what you want.

 

[Asif Limbada]

Its Tim, and sorry if it came across all harsh, i didnt mean it like that. I was just saying, there is a reason there like that. Down scaling at reasonable quality, at good FPS while maintaining all the extra goodies like HDRx, etc, in realtime, while writing to a SSD takes alot of power. BUT its a hot topic, and im sure red will give us a nice way of doing this in the future

Its ok Tim. But you do understand my need to understand it. What can I say, I am an info geek. Need to know why something is done the way its done

 

[Asif Limbada]

As Gunleik says above, because it wouldn't be raw any more, and the raw (r3d) recording is a big part of what makes the camera so good. If you down sample, you no longer have raw data.

That being said, the camera produces very good downsampled 1080 video. Just record what comes out of the sdi port if that's what you want.

My question would be why can't it record downsample RAW. I would be happy to record FF5K and in post down sample it to 4K RAW. But thats not possible is it?

If someone from RED is on forum, your take on this will be helpful.

 

[Timothy Carr]

Its ok Tim. But you do understand my need to understand it. What can I say, I am an info geek. Need to know why something is done the way its done

Haha same as me i guess. I hope there IS a way down the track, as i would love to turn up on set to a shoot that is only doing a 1080p output, save some space and money, and record FF at 1080p...

 

[Asif Limbada]

Haha same as me i guess. I hope there IS a way down the track, as i would love to turn up on set to a shoot that is only doing a 1080p output, save some space and money, and record FF at 1080p...

See Tim, here in Dubai, I am trying to get people on RED Scarlet who are using 5D Mark 2 (Indies and Low budget guys!!). When they use r3d raw, they just go "wow".

I am trying to convert people using Arri Alexa to the EPIC and Scarlet and all of this is because of r3d raw. But when they come back tell me you know its hard for our editing guys to work with 5K on their machines, they just down sample it to ProRes. After using this for almost a year now, I think achieving 4K native edits on 6, 8 and 12 core systems either mac or PC is possible. when they go half res debayer in premiere pro, everything is smooth. Working with 5K is hard on their systems.

I think either allow us to down sample 5K r3d to 4K r3d for our clients to use it on their system.

 

[Timothy Carr]

See Tim, here in Dubai, I am trying to get people on RED Scarlet who are using 5D Mark 2 (Indies and Low budget guys!!). When they use r3d raw, they just go "wow".

I am trying to convert people using Arri Alexa to the EPIC and Scarlet and all of this is because of r3d raw. But when they come back tell me you know its hard for our editing guys to work with 5K on their machines, they just down sample it to ProRes. After using this for almost a year now, I think achieving 4K native edits on 6, 8 and 12 core systems either mac or PC is possible. when they go half res debayer in premiere pro, everything is smooth. Working with 5K is hard on their systems.

I think either allow us to down sample 5K r3d to 4K r3d for our clients to use it on their system.

Im not a fan of DSLRs so converting people to Scarlet/Epic is awsome. I really think that it would be useful, but i guess its not an option right now unless you get a external recorder. I really think it would be great if red released there own recorder, that records r3d, at high framerates, at lower res.

 

[George Butterfield]

Haha same as me i guess. I hope there IS a way down the track, as i would love to turn up on set to a shoot that is only doing a 1080p output, save some space and money, and record FF at 1080p...

Different horses for different courses, on such a set I would join the others with a 5D. With the Epic-X you want to be shooting 4K. In the Major League with Ridley and the Boys. If you shoot the Epic-X at 1k HD ... get creative and move your camera around. At any price point you have to make compromises, RED always choses to go the "Pro" route. The RED Scarlet and used RED ONES are going to have such an earth shattering effect on the Indie Film Industry .... when computer power/workflow catches up .... no one will be shooting 1080p output. RED shoots 4K etc the way they designed it, they shoot 1K the way they designed it. To concentrate on 1K features would be a major step backwards in their forward industry shattering vision. If you want to do the 5D jobs ... use a 5D.

 

[Timothy Carr]

Different horses for different courses, on such a set I would join the others with a 5D. With the Epic-X you want to be shooting 4K. In the Major League with Ridley and the Boys. If you shoot the Epic-X at 1k HD ... get creative and move your camera around. At any price point you have to make compromises, RED always choses to go the "Pro" route. The RED Scarlet and used RED ONES are going to have such an earth shattering effect on the Indie Film Industry .... when computer power/workflow catches up .... no one will be shooting 1080p output. RED shoots 4K etc the way they designed it, they shoot 1K the way they designed it. To concentrate on 1K features would be a major step backwards in their forward industry shattering vision. If you want to do the 5D jobs ... use a 5D.

Im not a dslr supporter. But i get your point, but if you have a camera, why not use it?

 

[D Fuller]

My question would be why can't it record downsample RAW. I would be happy to record FF5K and in post down sample it to 4K RAW. But thats not possible is it?

If someone from RED is on forum, your take on this will be helpful.

No, it is not possible, because it would no longer be raw.

To downsample well, you have first to convert to RGB. So you have a choice: stay raw or convert to RGB and downsample. If you want to stay raw, you cannot downsample, you can only crop the area of the sensor you choose to record.

 

[conrad gaunt]

if red had a downsampled mode the Alexa would take a broad side.. it would surely be a useful thing, and im a little miffed that 1080p rgb recording modes were dropped.. but thats what happens..

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Yeah, but some people just don't want 5K (or 6K when it will come) when they really want is 4K native. Why compensate on FOV

There are many different ways to do downsample in post, I do it all the time. But I want to know the reason why RED is using cropping rather than downsampling.

Because the camera records RAW, and to do downscaling, it would have to first convert it to RGB, tripling the amount of data to record if left at the original resolution.

RAW contains a mosaic pattern of photo site information filtered green, red, and blue so you can't just drop every other pixel in a row to create a RAW file that is half the resolution. It has to be de-bayered into a full color image before it can be properly downscaled. That's a lot of processing and more data to record unless you are dropping way down in size like from 5K to HD. But 5K RGB is basically three 5K files for one color image so is 3X the size of a 5K RAW file.

The Sony F65 also records 16-bit raw information and leaves the conversion to 4K RGB later.

Sure, you can do a lot of downsampling in post but generally you are working with a bigger computer than the one inside a camera and you don't always have to do it in real-time.