Possibilities for scarlet 645 and/or 617?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

FYI... EPIC 645 sensor is only 20% smaller than 15-perf 70mm IMAX.

EPIC 617 is 20% taller and 2.4X wider!!!

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

lol this is so far from the truth its comical.. but maybe you were just kidding?

I was

 

[Shane Betts]

Scarlet 645 at 5 or 7 fps??? Why compromise and make such a version? If they were to make a crippled version or a Scarlet version, then it would be crippled compared to the Epic model at all other modes and frame rates. I don't see the point. If all you need is a medium format stills camera, there are currently options for that out there.

Uh, names? There's not a lot of medium format cameras out there doing 5fps Jeff. Maybe that's not something you desire but there's a hell of a lot of stills guys out there who'd give an arm for a 645 camera that does more than 1fps - way more than there are cinematographers with IMax projects in their futures. In the end the more units Red ships the better for all of us. Nothing brings prices down like volume sales.

Now, all of this conjecture is based on a few assumptions. Firstly that a 645 Scarlet would offer a similar price ratio to the Epic 645 as with, say, the FF35 models. Second assumption is that frame rates would be the only trade-off between Scarlet and Epic 645's. And thirdly, there would be ample lens mounting options (as in competitive to the currently available stills cameras) available. But, given those assumptions have some value I, like many many stills guys, would be lining up with cash in hand. Such a camera (a 645 with 5fps) would be more game changing in stills than the Red One has been in cine.

 

[Lee Saxon]

there's a hell of a lot of stills guys out there who'd give an arm for a 645 camera that does more than 1fps ... Nothing brings prices down like volume sales ... given those assumptions have some value I, like many many stills guys, would be lining up with cash in hand. Such a camera (a 645 with 5fps) would be more game changing in stills than the Red One has been in cine.

Quoted for truth.

With the Epic 645, Red is giving cinematographers 60 megapixels at 50 fps at around the same price Leaf or Phase One gives still photographers 60 megapixels at 0.8-1fps.

Imagine how cheap Red could give us still photographers 60 megapixels at ~ 5 fps!!

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24040

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I realize there aren't any other digital medium format backs out there doing 5~7 fps. I guess what I was saying is that anything less than 24fps seems to work against what RED is trying to do here.

I understand what you guys are suggesting / requesting here... Just saying that I don't see it happening. IMO, the bulk of the cost in a unit like the EPIC 645 is going to be the sensor. Even if the rest of the electronics were scaled down in ability, I don't see that offering a significant savings here and could even be counter-productive in that it's one more model to develop, sell and support.

There is definitely a market for this, as I also said in that thread Lee just linked in his post. I guess what RED has to decide is if this market is big enough to justify a scaled-down 645 model. And if so, if such a model is even viable or would provide enough cost-savings over the full EPIC 645 model to justify its existence.

 

[(blake)]

I realize there aren't any other digital medium format backs out there doing 5~7 fps. I guess what I was saying is that anything less than 24fps seems to work against what RED is trying to do here.

I understand what you guys are suggesting / requesting here... Just saying that I don't see it happening. IMO, the bulk of the cost in a unit like the EPIC 645 is going to be the sensor. Even if the rest of the electronics were scaled down in ability, I don't see that offering a significant savings here and could even be counter-productive in that it's one more model to develop, sell and support.

I agree with this completely. The idea of scaling back FPS and creating something that is not a DSMC is completely counter productive to the Red/Scarlet idea.

Furthermore, the market and demand for such an item would never surpass the demand that actually exists for a 645 cinema camera with 24fps+. Just buy this and extract stills instead. The versatility of full motion far outweighs the hassle of developing a stills only camera that is pretty much counterintuitive to the Scarlet idea in the first place. The cost savings if any would likely be miniscule for a now hobbled camera.

I'm interested in a 24fps 645 scarlet. But not one that is limited to shooting 5-7fps.

 

[Shane Betts]

I agree the idea is counter to Red's major focus and Jim is not likely to consider the idea. I also agree that, in all probability, a Scarlet 645 wouldn't offer a huge price break over an Epic with the same sensor. But I disagree that there would be less demand for a (cheaper) 645 @ 5fps than a (more expensive) 645 @ 24fps. I think a lot of stills guys would jump at it. And there's a LOT of stills guys out there. My point is that such a model could mean a lot of revenue for Red - a good thing for us all.

For me, a Scarlet S35 will probably do all I need from a cine camera and I just couldn't justify the cost of an Epic 645 - but a cheaper 645 brain would be a very tempting addition for stills work.

 

[Lee Saxon]

anything less than 24fps seems to work against what RED is trying to do here.

I guess it doesn't fit with what they've been giving us so far, but on the other hand I think it could be a cool addition. A third "stills-only" line. S35, FF35 and 645 brains at about 7-9fps, priced below the Scarlet line. Maybe even a 617 for the serious landscape / National Geographic guys.

IMO, the bulk of the cost in a unit like the EPIC 645 is going to be the sensor. Even if the rest of the electronics were scaled down in ability, I don't see that offering a significant savings here and could even be counter-productive in that it's one more model to develop, sell and support.

I was thinking the flipside of this was that using each sensor in 3 brains instead of 2 spread out sensor R&D costs. You may be right though, the ASIC development, sales, and support might overcome that.

There is definitely a market for this, as I also said in that thread Lee just linked in his post. I guess what RED has to decide is if this market is big enough to justify a scaled-down 645 model.

Yeah, I mentioned in the other thread that I read somewhere annual medium format back sales are less than MONTHLY Nikon D300 sales, I think it was around 3000-4000.

However, if they made it a regular brain that fit into the DSMC system, I think it would be of interest to a far wider market.

Besides, they're making the Epic 617 and how big of a market do you think there is for that?

 

[Lee Saxon]

Another thing about a third line-up like that is that it could be a step-up model for still photographers who might want to move into some filmmaking or video but aren't ready to take a $28,000 plunge.

Sorta like how BMW makes the cheap 1-series and leases it to anyone who can spell their own name to get people hooked early and guarantee future 7-series sales! Or how drug dealers give out samples

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Sorta like how BMW makes the cheap 1-series and leases it to anyone who can spell their own name to get people hooked early and guarantee future 7-series sales! Or how drug dealers give out samples

Isn't that what the RED One is now? And what the Scarlet S35 / FF35 models will be? :biggrinjester:

Seriously... I agree with you guys, I'd like to see it too. I just don't see it happening.

 

[Shane Betts]

Yeah, we're on the same page. I don't see it happening either but I guess I figure making a bit of noise about is the best way to get Jim thinking about it. Who knows? Nobody expected DSMC when the Red One started shipping.