POLL: humble Scarlet request - standardize on SSDs?

[Bruce Allen]

By the time Scarlet comes out (2/3" by early 2011 at the earliest), SSDs seem like they'll be the obvious solution.

Fast ones are already under $2 per gb. Heck, Sandforce-based OCZ Agility 2s 90GB SSDs were selling for $143 with rebate on Newegg two weeks ago. In early 2011 there's the next generation of Intel and Sandforce SSDs on its way which will continue the price/performance improvements.

I humbly hope RED stops worrying about CF modules, cards, RED-DRIVEs, RED-RAM, etc and just focuses on certifying SSDs for Scarlet. They seem like a nice balance of capacity, data rate, reliability and price to me.

Also if SSDs were the were the only media RED were selling and providing support for, surely RED could get the price down a ton?

I also think we might get fewer data rate / codec errors on Scarlet if there are less media options (and they could test the ones that they offer more rigorously).

Anyone else think this would be a good idea?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Deanan]

FYI, Sandforce based SSDs slow down to by more than half with anything compressed, including REDcode, MP3s, H264s, etc.
Their speed comes from compressing in the controller before writing to flash which doesn't work well if the data is already compressed.

 

[Bruce Allen]

FYI, Sandforce based SSDs slow down to by more than half with anything compressed, including REDcode, MP3s, H264s, etc.
Their speed comes from compressing in the controller before writing to flash which doesn't work well if the data is already compressed.

OK - good to know!

Just wondering - if they're supposed to be 260MB/s... and they actually do 80MB/s sustained - isn't that still fast enough for us Scarlet users? Or RAID two together? Or use the new Intel chips instead?

I'm not asking for a $150 RAID SSD and $100 module... just suspect you guys could come up with something cheap and fast with the way SSDs are going?

Especially if you didn't have to worry about all of the other writable media types?

Again thank you Deanan and RED for listening on a Sunday night at midnight to crazy user requests

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Laco Zamba]

Speed test

Speed test

With formating media camera could also test writing speed.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

If you want to create a result that is actually legitimate, you have to give people a choice of responses that actually respects the range of possible attitudes.

The way you posed this question and the choice of answers, you are simply going to create a bias heavily in favor of the outcome you are seeking. Most people are either going to agree with you (choice #1) or decline to answer (which is my choice) because choice #2 is silly and doesn't represent the only other attitude one can have about the matter. To make matters worse, you introduce a variable (cheaper) in choice #1 that you can't be sure you can back up or deliver (at the needed performance spec) - and if you can't, maybe people's answer's would change.

Maybe you weren't really going for a poll but just trying to make a statement. I certainly hope no one would actually change anything based on these results.

 

[Aaron Newsome]

A better poll would include realistic options that RED would actually consider.

On another note, there are no cheap SSD that can maintain a very high sustained data write of compressed video. Especially the sandforce based SSD. I bought one and it's not even close. The drives that really can do this are the pricey ones. Everytime someone posts about how cheap SSD are, I know they have not tried recording video to one.

Also keep in mind that stated specs never take into consideration the absolute requirement for uninterrupted data write. The stated specs say nothing about how often the controller will hiccup and causes frames to be dropped.

Defintely consider the SSD for reliable video will not be cheap.

 

[Jeff Kieffer]

It's not only about the speeds but also about reliability what makes professional media.

RED stated the SSD's would have a reinforced case and connector to endure the use they are exposed to.

Last week I dropped my phone in my washing machine by accident and it drowned. I lost some valuable data!

Now RED is concerned to improve the media enclosures and I really think they should be Weather and Waterproof! Then I'm totally OK with the projected prices when it comes to have peace of mind when shooting in extreme conditions in the wild. Because I want to pull it out of my bag, completely drowned in the rain and still having my data safe.

I don't think anything less, even when cheaper, will satisfy the customers in the long run.

 

[Aaron Newsome]

Just wondering - if they're supposed to be 260MB/s... and they actually do 80MB/s sustained - isn't that still fast enough for us Scarlet users? Or RAID two together? Or use the new Intel chips instead?

I have a (cheapish) SSD from a reputable company that is rated over 200MB/s sustained. Actual sustained video data write throughput is about 50MB/s at the most. The controller hiccups so often though (and long enough), that it is completely useless for recording video at all! Even at 25MB/s data rate, the controller hiccups often enough and long enough that no reliable recording can be done at all with this drive.

Spending any amount of money on this SSD was a waste of money. I'm now sold on only using SSD that can actually sustain what they say they can. Unfortunately, those are the pricier ones.

Ever wonder how two SSD can have the same specs, but one is like 3 times the price of the other? Well there is a reason for it.

 

[Bruce Allen]

The way you posed this question and the choice of answers, you are simply going to create a bias heavily in favor of the outcome you are seeking. Most people are either going to agree with you (choice #1) or decline to answer (which is my choice) because choice #2 is silly and doesn't represent the only other attitude one can have about the matter. To make matters worse, you introduce a variable (cheaper) in choice #1 that you can't be sure you can back up or deliver (at the needed performance spec) - and if you can't, maybe people's answer's would change.

Maybe you weren't really going for a poll but just trying to make a statement. I certainly hope no one would actually change anything based on these results.

I would argue that most polls on Reduser are started by people with bias. I am just making my bias obvious in an attempt at humor.

If anyone else wants to start a poll, they are very welcome. Seriously! I'll even delete this thread to avoid confusion.

RE: whether cheaper SSDs work... anyone with a new SSD want to benchmark how long it takes to write a bunch of R3Ds to one of those new SSDs?

I can give that a go when I have time?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[David Rasberry]

Don't expect Red to certify mass market media of any kind. There is little consistency from batch to batch, so reliability would always be questionable.
There is good reason why Sony, Panasonic, and Red produce and certify their own media for data intensive high end codecs.

 

[Bruce Allen]

Don't expect Red to certify mass market media of any kind. There is little consistency from batch to batch, so reliability would always be questionable.
There is good reason why Sony, Panasonic, and Red produce and certify their own media for data intensive high end codecs.

I am fine with RED producing their own media (which would presumably be based on whatever 3rd party sources they find that are fast enough). I am also fine with RED making a tidy profit on this.

I was just suggesting that if RED just made SSD media, instead of hard drive media, CF cards, etc as well... the SSD media and read/write modules could be made cheaper. Plus they could test it more thoroughly.

To me SSD is the future - and I suspect that by the time Scarlet comes out it will be the media that makes sense for most people. For sure it's the only thing I'm going to use (my CF cards can go to a nice home on my Sound Devices audio recorder .

Just wanted to see what other folks felt.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Aaron Newsome]

I was just suggesting that if RED just made SSD media, instead of hard drive media, CF cards, etc as well... the SSD media and read/write modules could be made cheaper. Plus they could test it more thoroughly.

I couldn't have said it better myself. The amount of cost, engineering, testing and all around effort for having four different kinds of media just can't be good for the long term. It would make more sense for RED to cease production of all other media and use SSD across the entire product line.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I couldn't have said it better myself. The amount of cost, engineering, testing and all around effort for having four different kinds of media just can't be good for the long term. It would make more sense for RED to cease production of all other media and use SSD across the entire product line.

I believe RED has indicated they will not be continuing with the hard drive option. I think that only leaves SSD and CF cards. What was the fourth? :001_unsure:

 

[Bruce Allen]

I believe RED has indicated they will not be continuing with the hard drive option. I think that only leaves SSD and CF cards. What was the fourth?

Well that's it - they have not stated whether they are supporting the old drives or not. I humbly suggest they don't bother.

Anyway, you have: 1. 8GB CF cards (supports one data rate - up to REDCODE28), 2. 16GB CF cards (supports another data rate - up to REDCODE36), 3. RED-DRIVE (the hard drive - up to REDCODE48), 4. RED-RAM (the old $4500 128GB SSD)... 5. the newer 1.8" REDMAG SSDs that are for Epic / Scarlet...?

I was just thinking maybe it'd be cheaper and simpler to only support the new 1.8" REDMAG SSDs with Scarlet.

The number of people wanting to use a discontinued RED-DRIVE on a Scarlet 2/3rds would be pretty small methinks, especially if there were a reasonably-priced SSD option. So why waste time supporting it? The second-hand market for RED-DRIVES is still pretty good so I don't think anyone would be upset, especially it decreases the testing and debugging work RED has to do every time they issue a Scarlet firmware update. Likewise, who is going to get a Scarlet that does REDCODE 100 - and only use a REDCODE 36 compact flash card with it?

Again, just my 2c.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[David Rasberry]

I am fine with RED producing their own media (which would presumably be based on whatever 3rd party sources they find that are fast enough). I am also fine with RED making a tidy profit on this.

I was just suggesting that if RED just made SSD media, instead of hard drive media, CF cards, etc as well... the SSD media and read/write modules could be made cheaper. Plus they could test it more thoroughly.

To me SSD is the future - and I suspect that by the time Scarlet comes out it will be the media that makes sense for most people. For sure it's the only thing I'm going to use (my CF cards can go to a nice home on my Sound Devices audio recorder .

Just wanted to see what other folks felt.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Red Ram and Red Drive are already history. They are already moving rapidly to SSD. The SSD drives announced are already cheaper per GB than the CF cards.

 

[Chuck Z]

If compact flash cards can do everything that a SSD would be able to do in terms of recording options on the Scarlet, do NOT standardize on one or the other. Give us some choice.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Well that's it - they have not stated whether they are supporting the old drives or not. I humbly suggest they don't bother.

Anyway, you have: 1. 8GB CF cards (supports one data rate - up to REDCODE28), 2. 16GB CF cards (supports another data rate - up to REDCODE36), 3. RED-DRIVE (the hard drive - up to REDCODE48), 4. RED-RAM (the old $4500 128GB SSD)... 5. the newer 1.8" REDMAG SSDs that are for Epic / Scarlet...?

I was just thinking maybe it'd be cheaper and simpler to only support the new 1.8" REDMAG SSDs with Scarlet.

The number of people wanting to use a discontinued RED-DRIVE on a Scarlet 2/3rds would be pretty small methinks, especially if there were a reasonably-priced SSD option. So why waste time supporting it? The second-hand market for RED-DRIVES is still pretty good so I don't think anyone would be upset, especially it decreases the testing and debugging work RED has to do every time they issue a Scarlet firmware update. Likewise, who is going to get a Scarlet that does REDCODE 100 - and only use a REDCODE 36 compact flash card with it?

Again, just my 2c.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

I guess I see what you describe from a little different perspective. As a Scarlet owner (some day!) my options are:

1) CF cards - whatever size I choose to buy over time (and the capacity will go up as long as they continue to support it) doesn't matter. It is all one module.

2) SSD - one module and, again, sizes will change over time as the technology advances but still, only one module to worry about.

For me, legacy RED drives and old RAMs are not in the picture. And I don't believe RED will be continuing to sell either option so they won't be for new RED customers either (again, assuming I have that right).

So there is really just two options - and I like options. Nothing against SSD, I'll undoubtedly own them. I just like having a choice. I even imagine that the CF option might shave a little weight for Steadicam mounting or jib or...?

 

[Stephen Lovett]

I personally don't have a strong opinion in this matter, but I think the standardization option described here isn't supportable.

FWIW I own a RED One and have drives and cards, but plan to standardize on SSD for my both RED One and Epic over time.

That said, I don't think RED gains anything by standardizing on SSD's for Scarlet, and I expect the higher price point would serve as another barrier for the folks who've already kicked up quite a ruckus about the higher price for HDRx™ capability. I can see the torches and hear the clanking of pitchforks if the price increases again.

Further it's not like RED can walk away from their current installed base of media. The folks at RED have the most successful (as in unit sales of a pro cinema camera) platform ever delivered, and RED One MX will continue to be a workhorse for some time IMHO.

Thus testing is still required for all software and firmware builds going forward. Let's remember that one of the founding premises of the company is managing obsolescence.

RED has already stated that you can choose to upgrade your Scarlet at the time of purchase for the difference in price, so those individuals who want the SSD option have it.

I'll keep my CF reader and FW cables on the DIT cart, because I don't thing that they aren't going to be surplus inventory any time soon.

Cheers,

Steve

 

[Aaron Newsome]

I believe RED has indicated they will not be continuing with the hard drive option. I think that only leaves SSD and CF cards. What was the fourth? :001_unsure:

I counted RED RAM as storage option number 4.

 

[Andrew Luczenczyn]

If the $/GB is lower, It just makes more sense to me to have a single larger capacity SSD than to shoot on multiple cards. Its easier for me to download my SSD over lunch breaks less frequently than to have a data wrangler come in and worry about CF cards