Politics, religion: was 2008 Elections...? - enter at your own risk

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Funny thought that poor kids should have to work hard and get off their ass to be successful but millionaire kids are entitled to a life of entitlement?

Now who's advocating laziness? Is the hard work of the parent sufficient for 1 generation? How many generations are entitled to a hard working parent's efforts?

(Again of course with exceptions for continuity of business.)

 

[krd]

Second. Move to Europe, if you feel it is the land of milk and honey.

On that basis, would it be fair to suggest you move to Guatemala or Nigeria, where you can get your low taxes and minimal regulation, and where the population lives and dies without interventions from the nanny state -- rather than trying to turn the U.S. into a third-world paradise?

 

[R Fogg]

Rfo

First point. Europe is not governed by a single unified government, French people don't pay taxes to Sweden. You counter point is ludicrous.

Second. Move to Europe, if you feel it is the land of milk and honey. I doubt you'll file the paper work... Life saving surgery is being performed right now on someone who doesn't have insurance... I'm paying 8 bucks a piece for a Tylenol to cover the cost of that persons surgery. People come from all over the world to get american health care.

Adobeone: "all the european nations don't come close to our population"
Me: "all nations in the EU have around a population of around 490,000,00"

Maybe I misunderstood what you were trying to say. However, If you were saying that those systems only work as they do because they have smaller populations, I would ask you to explain why it would work for smaller populations better than larger ones.

I love that "move to europe" is your best response. Are you 12? I was merely pointing out that other systems work just as well or better than the one we practice and love. Can you take it?

People from the US go to mexico, india and Thailand for medical care - so what is your point? It is probably true that you can get some of the best care money can buy in the US (you could probably buy it in europe as well) - but that isn't because the US has a great healthcare system - If you can really afford it, you can buy some great health care here, however you can also buy some really shoddy expensive care as well - and the result is some health measures linger just above those of second world countries.

 

[Russ McDonald]

On that basis, would it be fair to suggest you move to Guatemala or Nigeria, where you can get your low taxes and minimal regulation, and where the population lives and dies without interventions from the nanny state -- rather than trying to turn the U.S. into a third-world paradise?

This so far from a third wold state, I've been in many. Even the poorest American is leaps ahead of the poorest Nigerian. I have no problem paying a fair tax. But I do have a problem with supporting people with sound minds and able bodies, because they thing I owe them something. My success in life came with struggle and hard work, like most Americans. No one gave me anything... No special program, no business hand outs.

I'm am far from a scorched earth Darwin Capitalist. But I'm not a chump. This country leads the world because the difference between the have and the have nots, isn't race or social standing it's perseverance, dedication, and will. 20 years ago I was a pay check away from having to sleep on the street. I know what it means to be poor. Anybody can make it here.

 

[Tom Lowe]

uh oh... I opened a can of worms with this thread.

Let's stick to the election guys! Start another thread on property rights.

 

[Russ McDonald]

Adobeone: "all the european nations don't come close to our population"
Me: "all nations in the EU have around a population of around 490,000,00"

Maybe I misunderstood what you were trying to say. However, If you were saying that those systems only work as they do because they have smaller populations, I would ask you to explain why it would work for smaller populations better than larger ones.

I love that "move to europe" is your best response. Are you 12? I was merely pointing out that other systems work just as well or better than the one we practice and love. Can you take it?

People from the US go to mexico, india and Thailand for medical care - so what is your point? It is probably true that you can get some of the best care money can buy in the US (you could probably buy it in europe as well) - but that isn't because the US has a great healthcare system - If you can really afford it, you can buy some great health care here, however you can also buy some really shoddy expensive care as well - and the result is some health measures linger just above those of second world countries.

I see that I did not make myself clear. So, no single population in any individual country in Europe comes close to our 350+ million. Nor is the EU a federal system of government.

I find the Europe is a much better place to live, a flawed grass is greener argument. Of the 44 million uninsured here 49% are not even citizen of the country. I can't go to Canada, France, or Britain and demand healthcare...

When I say go to Europe to live I mean it. You would go nuts, because your wired differently, you take the man out of America, but you can't take the American out of the man.

 

[Poi Boy]

The fact of the matter is that our taxes are not that high compared to the rest of the world and we live a pretty charmed life because of all the hard work that was done by those that came before us. Let's do what we can to leave it a better place for our children and that includes making the world a better place not just our backyard. Lets put our incredible wealth to good use; a small part of what we spend on war could guarantee a college education for every American..that would go a long way to solving our problems. We are being served by many countries when it comes to math and Science education, we are resting on our laurels.
Aloha
-A

 

[Russ McDonald]

The fact of the matter is that our taxes are not that high compared to the rest of the world and we live a pretty charmed life because of all the hard work that was done by those that came before us. Let's do what we can to leave it a better place for our children and that includes making the world a better place not just our backyard. Lets put our incredible wealth to good use; a small part of what we spend on war could guarantee a college education for every American..that would go a long way to solving our problems. We are being served by many countries when it comes to math and Science education, we are resting on our laurels.
Aloha
-A

I feel for you brother, but the world isn't a cum by ya place. The enemy the west faces is worse then the Nazi's. Hitler was trying to replace God. These guys are off the chain. The Third Reich lasted only 10 years.

The war with Nazi's and Imperial Japan cost tens of millions of lives, and left europe in ruin.

This Islamic cult has been around for over 25 years before it was confronted. They haven't been able to take back Afghanistan, or secede in Iraq. Now they want to destabilize Pakistan a nuclear power. Do you think India is going to allow that to happen. Do you think Israel is going to let Iran to become a nuclear power. They will never stop until they achieve their goal of world domination. This isn't American propaganda, this comes from the mouth of the enemy. Wars are fought for two reason Conquest or survival. They are decided by the tragic math of attrition...

 

[Poi Boy]

I feel for you brother, but the world isn't a cum by ya place. The enemy the west faces is worse then the Nazi's. Hitler was trying to replace God. These guys are off the chain. The Third Reich lasted only 10 years.

The war with Nazi's and Imperial Japan cost tens of millions of lives, and left europe in ruin.

This Islamic cult has been around for over 25 years before it was confronted. They haven't been able to take back Afghanistan, or secede in Iraq. Now they want to destabilize Pakistan a nuclear power. Do you think India is going to allow that to happen. Do you think Israel is going to let Iran to become a nuclear power. They will never stop until they achieve their goal of world domination. This isn't American propaganda, this comes from the mouth of the enemy. Wars are fought for two reason Conquest or survival. They are decided by the tragic math of attrition...

Then the feeling is mutual, I feel for you, cum by ya my ass. You are doomed by your lack of imagination that there can be no other way.
-A

 

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Yeah, the medieval tithe worked a lot like the flat tax.

They instituted this flat thing recently, I think it's a EU trend. Don't know about that.

I personally think that the higher your income, the higher the taxes should be for you. A kind of Robin Hood philosophy. Rich and poor people are equally unacceptable, the middle class is the backbone.

If you have a house with 40 bedrooms, 2 pools and a tennis court, you should be heavily taxed.

And if you leave a big fortune to your children, OK, let them have a part of it, but a big part should go into a fund that supports emerging small and middle businesses - like a program for low-interest loans or something.

For example, Warren Buffet dies, but 60 % of his fortune should go into this program, not directly to the state budget and not to his kids.

And then you're a small guy who wants to buy a RED ONE and start a little rental\production company, or you want to make a little family restaurant or sell a revolutionary type of pizza, and if you take this loan, you'll have a better chance, and this is better for the economy.

If you fail, you'll fail anyway. But people deserve better chances to try and make decent private business.

Dreams, dreams..

 

[R Fogg]

I see that I did not make myself clear. So, no single population in any individual country in Europe comes close to our 350+ million. Nor is the EU a federal system of government.

I find the Europe is a much better place to live, a flawed grass is greener argument. Of the 44 million uninsured here 49% are not even citizen of the country. I can't go to Canada, France, or Britain and demand healthcare...

When I say go to Europe to live I mean it. You would go nuts, because your wired differently, you take the man out of America, but you can't take the American out of the man.

Adobeone, did you read my posts? Just wondering cause sometimes it feels like you're just doin some crazy rightwing spoken word jazz poetry or something.

Cause if you are not doing jazz poetry and you toss out statistics like that 49% - I might have to check them and find out you are...WRONG!. http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/income_wealth/010583.html

Anyway a1 - It was fun - I am done, good luck. Do your jazz thang and then please lets let the conversation return to the elections.

best
r

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Islamic Extremists a greater threat than the Nazi Party! Holy Krieky! No wonder you are so anxious to kill all the terrorists.

The Islamic Extremists are a threat to us no doubt but they won't ever be able to rally the support and real numbers to accomplish their goals of world domination. There was a very real chance that hitler was going to take over the world. That's a threat to our way of life. Not a bunch of people who want to make huge news headlines but evidently are wildly incompetant. They think too big. Too CNN. If they just simplified their process they could do some real damage to us.

Also you're dead wrong. You can go to France and demand health care. One of my very good friends had a schizofrenic break last year. The US Health care took him in for 4 days and wanted to discharge him unless the family could front the money. Thankfully they had the insurance to do it but it still cost tens of thousands after the insurance for 'extended hospital stay' of dollars before they found the right meds.

This last year he went to france for a trip and had a second episode. The French hospital took him in. He was seen by some of the top specialists in psychology. He got the medicine he needed in less than 4 hours. No wait what so ever. All free of charge courtesy of the French Government.

I've had enough friends and family members over the years need care in european nations and have absolutely no problem what so ever getting the help they needed immediatley with no wait.

I needed a specialist to look at my shoulder after I dislocated it and tore just about every ligament and tendon in the joint. Took 3 months. It wasn't a problem because it gave me the time to give physical therapy a chance. But still 3 months. Everybody has waits. Everybody has perfect convergences.


The real problem with health insurance is if it's not mandatory you have a bunch of people who quite honestly can afford it but don't pay for it which then drives up the price for everybody. The poor then visit the emergency room. The affluent declare bankrupcy and then only the wealthy can afford it. And it's getting progressively worse. For every person who can't afford health care the price goes up!

 

[Russ McDonald]

That statistic comes from the Us census, not a right wing NGO. Your right it was 45% are not citizens that was a typo.

Everything that has been discussed on this thread is part of the election. issues, and ideas are the election. As I have said before I am not Right or Left. This is the problem with the coming election. If you consider yourself a Liberal than anyone that challenges your POV they must be a Right wing conservative. This cuts both ways. We love to say we're fair minded and inclusive. Until we don't like what someone has to say... Then we go for the Political play book. He says this, then I have to say this, it's the debate trouble shooting tree. The problem is the play book is always based on old information.

That is why this election year is one the most important in American history. We need to hold both of the parties feet to the fire. They need to be asked hard questions, and be confronted with the state of the world as it is... Not the way you are going to promise me, but have no hope of accomplishing. In a Republicans bad, Democrats good or Democrats bad, republicans Good environment. This thread has been cool, it has hit everything issue that matters. I hope it keeps going all the way to November....

Wimps need not apply....

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Write in campaign for Wesley Clark!

 

[Russ McDonald]

Islamic Extremists a greater threat than the Nazi Party! Holy Krieky! No wonder you are so anxious to kill all the terrorists.

The Islamic Extremists are a threat to us no doubt but they won't ever be able to rally the support and real numbers to accomplish their goals of world domination. There was a very real chance that hitler was going to take over the world. That's a threat to our way of life. Not a bunch of people who want to make huge news headlines but evidently are wildly incompetant. They think too big. Too CNN. If they just simplified their process they could do some real damage to us.

Also you're dead wrong. You can go to France and demand health care. One of my very good friends had a schizofrenic break last year. The US Health care took him in for 4 days and wanted to discharge him unless the family could front the money. Thankfully they had the insurance to do it but it still cost tens of thousands after the insurance for 'extended hospital stay' of dollars before they found the right meds.

This last year he went to france for a trip and had a second episode. The French hospital took him in. He was seen by some of the top specialists in psychology. He got the medicine he needed in less than 4 hours. No wait what so ever. All free of charge courtesy of the French Government.

I've had enough friends and family members over the years need care in european nations and have absolutely no problem what so ever getting the help they needed immediatley with no wait.

I needed a specialist to look at my shoulder after I dislocated it and tore just about every ligament and tendon in the joint. Took 3 months. It wasn't a problem because it gave me the time to give physical therapy a chance. But still 3 months. Everybody has waits. Everybody has perfect convergences.


The real problem with health insurance is if it's not mandatory you have a bunch of people who quite honestly can afford it but don't pay for it which then drives up the price for everybody. The poor then visit the emergency room. The affluent declare bankrupcy and then only the wealthy can afford it. And it's getting progressively worse. For every person who can't afford health care the price goes up!

They said the same thing about Hitler in 1936. There are over a Billion Muslims in the world. If 1% are wack jobs that 10 million, that is allot of foot soldiers Buba.

So french medical system is going to pay for my liver transplant, or my Cancer treatment, how about my aids medication. for free.... No way

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Let's be reasonable.

1 billion / 5 as a conservative amount of able bodied men. * .01

With no economic base. No military technology and are only being tolerated at 1% because they aren't threatening the local governments. You see an extremist uprising in Saudi Arabia that intends to threaten Saudi Sovereignty and I'll show you a lot of ruthlessly hunted dead Saudi extremists.

If Iran even tried something truely stupid. They would be out of power over night. The Iranian people are extremely disastified. The worst that would happen is a massive series of self destructive civil wars occuring across the region. They would not be by any stretch of the imagination expansionist.

Plus you have Pakistan who's just itchin to use a nuke and would happily nuke the first neightbor that tries to push out of its borders.

You have india who won't hesitate to just eliminate Iran once and for all.

You have Turkey who's already taking part in cross border raids.

If the middle east had any intent to expand they would get snuffed out of existance in less than a week.

Shit even without a nuke Isreal effectively defeated all of them at once not too long ago.

And all of that is worst case scenario where somehow the entire middle east goes up in arms. simultaneously as one with a single cause and some how magically puts all of their inter tribal conflicts behind them. Which would actually be a miracle in of itself.

 

[krd]

This so far from a third wold state, I've been in many. Even the poorest American is leaps ahead of the poorest Nigerian. I have no problem paying a fair tax. But I do have a problem with supporting people with sound minds and able bodies, because they thing I owe them something. My success in life came with struggle and hard work, like most Americans. No one gave me anything... No special program, no business hand outs....

How much of your taxes do you really think goes to supporting free-loaders these days? How does the amount compare, say, with the military budget, corporate welfare, or debt service on tax cuts to the wealthy (since that's all borrowed money)?

Or is it your view that payments like social security and Medicare represent free-loading? Despite the fact that people paid for these benefits, and despite the known good that these programs accomplish -- for example, by keeping the elderly out of poverty?

I'm well aware that the average American is at a standard of living leaps and bounds above the average Nigerian. My point was, the third world today implements by default most of the so-called libertarian policies which are so beloved of folks here who aren't put to the inconvenience of living under such systems. If it's so wonderful, why accept all the public subsidies and services that a welfare state like the U.S. provides to you and American businesses -- everything from filling potholes to "protecting" American assets abroad? There are plenty of places you can live with minimal government intervention in your life. They're not pretty, but I thought that was the idea?

As for this this country leading the world ... well, I think you're living in an earlier era. You may love the place, and I'm glad you've been successful, but that's not a reliable index of anything. If the dollar wasn't a reserve currency, which we can print and others will buy, this economy would have collapsed years ago. And not on account of welfare spending or social security.

From the foreign policy analysis you've put forward, you've apparently accepted the George Bush world view, which I find curious, in view of your dislike of government, George Bush's staggering ignorance and his massive policy failures. But Tom is right, this truly is a waste of time, for everyone. In the end, these are religious convictions, not rational ones. Or everyone thinks his political convictions are rational, but everyone else's are religious. Utterly hopeless.... Blame the American educational system.

 

[Michael Schrengohst]

Every small business owner I deal with are holding their breath right now.
The big companies I deal with are always *ucked up. The amount of time, effort and money
I have put in over the years in dealing with taxes and regulation have drained the life out of me.
Years ago I had a huge nut and employees that would look at me every morning and it got to be too much.
Just when you think you would get ahead, another tax bill, another something or other.
I have great respect for any business that can thrive and prosper in today's environment.
I have been solo since 9-11 and have no interest in building anything any longer.
The last thing I tried nearly killed me and my wife finally kicked me in the balls (Thank God).

So stick with what you know.

Don't blow your wad on gear and crazy website ideas.

Trust your gut instinct.

Help people that want to get into the business.

Those you help might be your next boss!

Always offer fair payment for a days work.

Never be-little or degrade your competition.

Always do more than your customers expect.

And remember - politicans are only people. (Most of them anyways)

Have a great 2008!

 

[Russ McDonald]

Let's be reasonable.

1 billion / 5 as a conservative amount of able bodied men. * .01

With no economic base. No military technology and are only being tolerated at 1% because they aren't threatening the local governments. You see an extremist uprising in Saudi Arabia that intends to threaten Saudi Sovereignty and I'll show you a lot of ruthlessly hunted dead Saudi extremists.

Hitler's army had 13 million men, not all of them were Nazi fanatics. No economic base, Iran has huge resources. How many AK-47 do you think are in the world. Russia and China are selling to everybody. Do you know how Iran stopped Iraq? They send unarmed human waves of 13-17 year old boys until they overwhelmed the Iraqis. Extremist already rule Iran, Indonesia is being threatened, Pakistan is on the edge, Hezbollah controls a third of Lebanon, Hamas has split the Palestinians and now control Gaza, and the Saudi kingdom is far from invincible.

If Iran even tried something truely stupid. They would be out of power over night. The Iranian people are extremely disastified. The worst that would happen is a massive series of self destructive civil wars occuring across the region. They would not be by any stretch of the imagination expansionist.

Unfortunately Iranian citizens don't have the 2nd amendment. He who controls the guns, and has no problem killing the innocent wins.

Plus you have Pakistan who's just itchin to use a nuke and would happily nuke the first neightbor that tries to push out of its borders.
You have india who won't hesitate to just eliminate Iran once and for all.

Well, I'm sure your right there, I wonder what the ecological, and humanitarian impact on the rest of the world would be after a nuclear exchange between India and Pakistan.

You have Turkey who's already taking part in cross border raids.

If the middle east had any intent to expand they would get snuffed out of existance in less than a week.

Refer to the previous statement.

Shit even without a nuke Isreal effectively defeated all of them at once not too long ago.

And all of that is worst case scenario where somehow the entire middle east goes up in arms. simultaneously as one with a single cause and some how magically puts all of their inter tribal conflicts behind them. Which would actually be a miracle in of itself.

The Arabs didn't have a nuke in 1973, but hey they sure managed to but a side their inter tribal conflicts.

 

[Russ McDonald]

How much of your taxes do you really think goes to supporting free-loaders these days? How does the amount compare, say, with the military budget, corporate welfare, or debt service on tax cuts to the wealthy (since that's all borrowed money)?

The majority of welfare recipients are white and are able bodied and of sound mind, between 20-29 years of age. 19% of the total number stay in the system for over 5 years. Thank god most are out of the system after 2 years. I have no problem with a 2 year hand up...

Or is it your view that payments like social security and Medicare represent free-loading? Despite the fact that people paid for these benefits, and despite the known good that these programs accomplish -- for example, by keeping the elderly out of poverty?

This isn't what I would call welfare, refer to you second sentence.

I'm well aware that the average American is at a standard of living leaps and bounds above the average Nigerian. My point was, the third world today implements by default most of the so-called libertarian policies which are so beloved of folks here who aren't put to the inconvenience of living under such systems. If it's so wonderful, why accept all the public subsidies and services that a welfare state like the U.S. provides to you and American businesses -- everything from filling potholes to "protecting" American assets abroad? There are plenty of places you can live with minimal government intervention in your life. They're not pretty, but I thought that was the idea?

I'm not an advocate of hardcore libertarian views, Democratic, or Republican views.

As for this this country leading the world ... well, I think you're living in an earlier era. You may love the place, and I'm glad you've been successful, but that's not a reliable index of anything. If the dollar wasn't a reserve currency, which we can print and others will buy, this economy would have collapsed years ago. And not on account of welfare spending or social security.

The productivity of an American worker is worth more than a pound of cold. The world monetary system is set, despite the anarchist wet dream it will never collapse.

From the foreign policy analysis you've put forward, you've apparently accepted the George Bush world view, which I find curious, in view of your dislike of government, George Bush's staggering ignorance and his massive policy failures. But Tom is right, this truly is a waste of time, for everyone. In the end, these are religious convictions, not rational ones. Or everyone thinks his political convictions are rational, but everyone else's are religious. Utterly hopeless.... Blame the American educational system.

911 changed my world view. In the end history will be the ultimate arbiter. if the past is any indication Bush (despite your personal hatred for him.) will be remember more kindly than you think. This belief that if the Democrats sweep the halls of power, the threat will be over is naive.