Politics, religion: was 2008 Elections...? - enter at your own risk

[Gavin Greenwalt]

They try to justify bad behavior, by sighting worse behavior. An attitude that infects both sides of the political isle.

Didn't you just use Europe's health care system as an example of why America is superior?

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I feel as if the worst behavior isn't the way either party conducts themselves it's that all the candidates have become "solution oriented" instead of "problem oriented".

We need to start at the beginning. "What is the problem?"

You can very easily get caught up and lost in the snowstorm trying to figure out how to do XYZ when the basic issue at hand is never even addressed "what do we want to do."

"We need universal health care." "No we don't." Isn't the right way to approach the problem. The first step is to address the problem. People aren't getting adequate health care. Which People? Does everybody deserve good health care? If so how do we go about getting health care for everybody? What do the different options cost? Which options can we afford? Where is this money going to come from?

These are the most basic simple starter questions. Instead they jump to the process. The solution. (They aren't even elected yet and they already have the solution?) I want to see a billion dollars spent on pilot programs, research, longitudal studies. I want to see a candidate who says.

"I don't know how the fuck to fix this problem, but I'm going to set in motion a process which figures out the *right* way to solve the problem that we all agree exists."

And then I want to see future politicians stick to the plan if it's producing results. I want to see science brought to our decision making process. There is a right answer. There is a truth. It might be murky and it might be hard to find but out in the world there is a measureable emperical reality. If we're going to spend trillions of dollars how about designing policy like you design an aircraft wing or camear!?

You don't see an engineer at boeing walk into a room and say "I think the airfoil is going to look like this." a second engineer raises his hand. "I think the front should be more curvy and I won't sign off until it's thicker." a third engineer raises his hand. "and I won't sign off until it's thinner in the back." Everybody compromises that's a 'fair' agreement and send off the plans to be machined into the production aircraft. They test. They investigate. They put the thing in a wind tunnel.

I am going to point a giant foam finger at the republican party for largely contributing to this with their goddamn "flip flopper" assault. Now every politician from here until memory fades is going to hold onto their policies with iron vices on both sides of the aisle for fear of *gasp* changing their mind after being presented with evidence.

 

[Russ McDonald]

I would fully support a 90% Estate tax for estates > $4m.

Use it or lose it. That's what I say.

Get your hands out of my F#@&ing estate. I worked for I earned it, and I did it for my family so they could succeed without burdening the tax payer. I think if you really had 4 million and a family it would be a different story. You pinko, bastard....!

Just pulling your chain I don't think your a pinko bastard.

 

[R Fogg]

america will always be a free market republic, it will never be a european style socialist system... Ever! It's to large, all the european nations don't come close to our population.

Huh? Dude, you are pulling all of this out of your ass aren't you.
EU population stands at around 490,000,000
http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats9.htm

European socialist states aren't nirvana. If they were, they wouldn't be people standing in line to immigrate to the US. The problem is in socialist state, the State is the most important. Those that live in the socialist state, function to support the State. The Individual gets lost, health care is a good example. Many people die waiting for their turn for care. One of the largest growth markets in Europe is private health insurance... Why?

I think you are missing the point. The argument wasn’t about creating nirvana, it was a claim that socialized systems CAN/DO work in measurable ways to improve the lives of a country's population. Anecdotes just don't cut it. All systems have drawbacks and no system can be applied universally. I think your analysis of who serves who in the socialist state is flawed. Ideally all systems strive to protect their populations - this can be executed poorly in a totally free market system as easily as in a socialist state. I don’t believe swedish people feel they function to support the state any more than I do here in Utah. In fact I would bet that my life here is far more legislated than most in western europe. In addition (and I don't have statistics in front of me so please correct me if I am wrong) but I’d bet a dollar that line to immigrate to the US from western europe is pretty short. In terms of socialized medicine…I have a health care background and you are living in a dream world if you think US market driven medicine provides better measurable results than socialized medicine does in western europe. Check out infant mortaility in the US http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/parenting/05/08/mothers.index/index.html

Com'on adobeone take the blinders off, or at least do a little research.
Additional props to Macville for posting links to support some of his well considered positions.

 

[number6]

There will always be homeless and hopeless people, always. Help surounds them but they will never reach out. Why, I don't think I will ever get my head around that attitude.

That being the case is your society judged by the person who is willing to give the hand up. Or is to be judge by the person who by choice to turn their back on the help. If your measure is the former than my nation is full to the brim with those who will lend a hand, are more effective and more successful at it than any government agency.

All joking aside, this goes to the heart of things. There are people every day who try to make the case that there are people going to bed hungry in America (it's true, too... then they get up, eat half a cake, the rest of the leftover pizza if any was left over in the first place, then go back to bed full).

Yes, there is true hunger in America, especially among the children of parent or parents that either can't figure out whom to ask for directions to the nearest food bank, or maybe those parents are just too stoned to realize that their kids are not high and therefore can feel a hunger pang.

But all those who come doun so hard on the Christian Right (I'm agnostic, so your sticks and stones are the only way you can hurt me) should pledge to step up and give as much, or better yet, match their percentage (of personal wealth) given, on average.

On the other hand, liberals are knoun for giving of themselves, like Audrey Hepburn for instance, who gave 'til it killed her. And of course, Gates and Warren Buffet are famous liberal givers.

All in all, we Americans are not such a bad bunch.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

But all those who come doun so hard on the Christian Right should pledge to step up and give as much, or better yet, match their percentage (of personal wealth) given, on average.

Well the christian right does have a system called "tithe" which should theoretically do wonders for social programs. But almost all of it gets wasted on ministry.

Get your hands out of my F#@&ing estate. I worked for I earned it, and I did it for my family so they could succeed without burdening the tax payer.

It's my understanding that at the time of your death your wealth would without penalty roll over to your wife's sole control in such a situation as she would be a co-controller before death or else another legal guardian until the age of 18. And if we were actually to do it of course we would need to make it a progressive percentage so that the cut-off woudln't be quite so stark from the current 1.5million 60% point to say a 20 million 90%. Exceptions would be made for up to 1 million per child in a trust fund.

Also of course you would want to setup your corporation in such a way that your company would be an independent entity but control would be transferred to your heir.

 

[Bill Goehring]

Well the christian right does have a system called "tithe" which should theoretically do wonders for social programs. But almost all of it gets wasted on ministry.

Amen, brother. Amen.

 

[Russ McDonald]

Rfo

First point. Europe is not governed by a single unified government, French people don't pay taxes to Sweden. You counter point is ludicrous.

Second. Move to Europe, if you feel it is the land of milk and honey. I doubt you'll file the paper work... Life saving surgery is being performed right now on someone who doesn't have insurance... I'm paying 8 bucks a piece for a Tylenol to cover the cost of that persons surgery. People come from all over the world to get american health care.

 

[number6]

Well the christian right does have a system called "tithe" which should theoretically do wonders for social programs. But almost all of it gets wasted on ministry.

I wasn't chastizing you personally... I don't give either. I'm saving up for two RED ones.

edit: The poor? Let them eat cake!

 

[Russ McDonald]

All joking aside, this goes to the heart of things. There are people every day who try to make the case that there are people going to bed hungry in America (it's true, too... then they get up, eat half a cake, the rest of the leftover pizza if any was left over in the first place, then go back to bed full).

Yes, there is true hunger in America, especially among the children of parent or parents that either can't figure out whom to ask for directions to the nearest food bank, or maybe those parents are just too stoned to realize that their kids are not high and therefore can feel a hunger pang.

But all those who come doun so hard on the Christian Right (I'm agnostic, so your sticks and stones are the only way you can hurt me) should pledge to step up and give as much, or better yet, match their percentage (of personal wealth) given, on average.

On the other hand, liberals are knoun for giving of themselves, like Audrey Hepburn for instance, who gave 'til it killed her. And of course, Gates and Warren Buffet are famous liberal givers.

All in all, we Americans are not such a bad bunch.

Not a Republican, nor am I big church goer.

Statistically conservatives are more generous than Liberals...LINK ONE OF Many

 

[Ace]

I am going to point a giant foam finger at the republican party for largely contributing to this with their goddamn "flip flopper" assault. Now every politician from here until memory fades is going to hold onto their policies with iron vices on both sides of the aisle for fear of *gasp* changing their mind after being presented with evidence.

To me, 'Flip flopping' denotes signs of intelligence.. It shows agility in thinking, constant reasoning and more importantly reflection. The world is not constant. If bush flip flopped on the Iraq war, we'd all be in a better place right now.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Well if you can believe that a book written 2-5k years ago is airtight I suppose you should expect your politicians to hold onto an idea for at least 30 years.

 

[number6]

we'd all be in a better place right now.

I beg to differ... there is no better place.:turned:

 

[Russ McDonald]

Well if you can believe that a book written 2-5k years ago is airtight I suppose you should expect your politicians to hold onto an idea for at least 30 years.

What the hell is that supposed mean. I think I know but I need you to clarify.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I mean if you feel as if your chosen dogmatic text is inerring and literally word for word perfect you're already in a mindset where what is "right and wrong" is undebatable.

Just have Faith in your elected official and nothing can possibly go wrong...

Faith is a treacherous thing when what you have faith in is prone to failure.

 

[Russ McDonald]

Ace

I keep hearing this from people.

So something that has never happened before in Arab culture in 5000 years. A pluralist Arab democracy, of Arabs, for Arabs, by Arabs. With equal participation by women. Is a bad thing...

 

[Russ McDonald]

I mean if you feel as if your chosen dogmatic text is inerring and literally word for word perfect you're already in a mindset where what is "right and wrong" is undebatable.

Just have Faith in your elected official and nothing can possibly go wrong...

Faith is a treacherous thing when what you have faith in is prone to failure.

This is a black and white statement on your part.

There is right and wrong, there is good and evil. They're a good people who do bad things, but there are those that are evil. Hitler was a vegetarian and he loved his dog. But I'm sure you would not argue that he was evil personified.

 

[number6]

Not a Republican, nor am I big church goer.

Statistically conservatives are more generous than Liberals...LINK ONE OF Many

Very enlightening link http://www.philanthropy.com/free/articles/v19/i04/04001101.htm

Thought I would bump it in case there were some who passed over it.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

This is a black and white statement on your part.

There is right and wrong, there is good and evil. They're a good people who do bad things, but there are those that are evil. Hitler was a vegetarian and he loved his dog. But I'm sure you would not argue that he was evil personified.

There is black and white there is good and evil there is right and wrong.

But taking someone's word for which is which is how we got Hitler in the first place.

Temperance isn't a virtue because the bible and koran says so. It's a virtue because it's been shown to usually be true. The danger arises when hearsay is held in the same regard as critical investigation.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Get your hands out of my F#@&ing estate. I worked for I earned it, and I did it for my family so they could succeed without burdening the tax payer. I think if you really had 4 million and a family it would be a different story. You pinko, bastard....!

Yep. If I work hard to amass a substantial estate, especially if the rest of the family helps via a family business or such arrangements, then I damn well better be able to let it pass to my children, grandchildren, etc.. It takes time to do such things, most large estates are not built in one lifetime, nor should they be taxed away at the end of a single lifetime either.

Just pulling your chain I don't think your a pinko bastard.

I didn't think he was before, but now I'm rethinking that. :innocent:

Hehe... :clown2:

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

:gun: Just be glad I'm not advocating a return to the policy of the "Year of Jubilee".

Now that Jehova guy. He was a pinko!