Politics, religion: was 2008 Elections...? - enter at your own risk

[Tom Lowe]

All of these issues are interesting, but for me, foreign policy overrides all of them. As someone who's spent more of his adult life overseas than here in the states, I've witnessed first hand the deterioration of US in the eyes of the world.

If you read the Koran, you understand that it is not only advised for Muslims to violently resist "occupation," it is their absolute duty to do so. We have no business interfering in their affairs or having armies in their countries. What right do we have to do that? We toppled a democratically elected government in 1953 in Iran to install the American-friendly Shah, then we act surprised when this leads to an Islamic nutball like Khomeini coming to power?

We need to stop pissing people off needlessly. 50 years ago wars were fought state to state, but technology has advanced so quickly that small groups of angry people can whip up a biological weapon, for example, that could kill millions of us in a couple of days. How do you stop that? You can't. So the best policy is to stop doing things that needlessly anger hundreds of millions of people in the first place.

Not too mention that this empire building is bankrupting us. The Soviet Union did not collapse because they were invaded; they collapsed because they went broke.

 

[krd]

All of these issues are interesting, but for me, foreign policy overrides all of them.

True enough, but I'd say it's all part of the same package. One of the unacknowledged reasons for invading Iraq was the desire to set up a free-market paradise -- a place where American interests could, post-invasion, acquire Iraqi resources, including their oil, without restraint or inconvenience, and at prices set by the buyer, not the seller.

 

[Emanuel A.]

Since we aren't judging candidates based on experience and merely how we feel about them, I will now endorse Jim Jannard for president. I know this will delay Scarlet, but the executive order giving subsidies for a national digital projection conversion would easily be worth it!

JJ'08!!

Same feeling here even if I don't vote in your primaries. JJ would rock. One of the most clever choices, that'd be for sure!

JJ'12!!!

 

[Tom Lowe]

No rational person can deny that our wars in the middle east have been driven by our dependence on oil. James Baker literally came out and said that securing that oil was main reason we went to war in Saudi Arabia. I gladly fought in that war as a young man and didn't really question it. In a sense, at least in that war a point could made that we fought to keep Saddam from cutting off most of the world's oil, and thus you could make a case that we did it for national security reasons. But even if you make that case, we should have kicked Saddam out of Kuwait, damaged his army severely (which we did), then gotten the heck out of the Saudi Arabia. Was there no one in the Pentagon or White House for all those years after the war who had ever read the Koran? They don't want our troops on their land. And we wouldn't want foreign troops in our country either. We'd be fighting mad if foreign troops were here in the US. Most of us would pick up rifles and wage our own "jihad" against any foreign troops here.

 

[Matthew Rogers]

So I get charged 30% sales tax which works out to 23% when you calculate it after tax (+8.5% for Washington State). Except that means that the millionaires get a tax cut! What millionaire ony pays 23% income tax? That means we'll have to pick up the slack with the poor right? Nope! They get a complete tax break in the form of a check (Hooray more government agencies created by the 'Conservatives'!) which is based I can only assume on a wildly confusing and just as easily as income tax perverted system of credits and deductions. Except now we're making the poor figure out how much 'credit' they're supposed to get every month to offset their sales tax. Brilliant plan!

Ahhh, you are confused by inclusive vs exclusive. Exclusively, yes, the tax would be 30% ($.77x30%=$1) However, the tax is figured INCLUSIVELY (which I admit, to me, is a little more confusing to me.) It's figured on the total amount $1 x 23% = $.23. So $.77 + $.23 = $1. I did find out that the FairTax figured the tax inclusively because that's how you are currently paying that hidden tax/tax prep fee (currently 28%-30% when figured exclusively vs 22-23% inclusively.)

Actually, I would bet that most millionaires don't pay as much as you think. They can afford all those accountants that do tricky things with numbers and can afford to hide it away. You've got to wonder how much income those millionaires make that's not taxed at all because of offshore banks and funneling it through investments (WHICH IS GOOD FOR OUR ECONOMY!)

But wait! We've reduced the taxes to the wealthy... and we've maintained the 0 tax on the those below the poverty line... what about college students? Nope no luck they're above the poverty line. So they'll see their taxes go UP from 0 - 17% to 23% like everybody else. But even 23% on a college student's almost nothing is still pretty much nothing. So where does this extra revenue come from? Who knows! It sounds to me like I just got a tax increase and the yacht owners got a tax break. Yep just like the tagline on the webpage... that's a "progressive" tax system.

Why would tax go up on everybody? You've got to remember that your already paying hidden business taxes with each item bought at the store! So that college student is already paying 23% on every DVD/Book/Starbucks they buy. Sure, they are not paying anything in Federal Income tax, but they are still paying taxes to Uncle Sam. I am guessing that you don't know any rich people. All the rich people I know spend ALOT of money each year on things. Let's see, new gadgets, new houses, new furniture, new cars, new clothes, more costly food, and the list goes on. I'm betting that one of my clients probably spends 3x what I make in a year on new items and services. The rich spend money. Tons of it. Now that they would have more money, they would spend even more (and stop trying to hide it outside of the country.) But oh wait, everyone is going to have more money! It would have been huge for my wife and I a few years ago when we cashed in most of her stock to help pay for a down payment on our house. We ended up paying a couple of thousand dollars in taxes which would have been much better for us to invest in our house.

Oh, and by the way, the tax burden will be only as high as you spend. So if you only spend on what you need (not buying big screen TV's and stuff) then your burden will be very low. Plus, there's all the people in this country who are not reporting their income who will be taxed (illegals, crooks, etc.) The burden of the government they use will finally be shared with them.

Even better I read nothing on a corporate income tax. Only a retail income tax. So of course prices are going to drop.

"But wait... weren't the corporations the source of a sizeable part of the US Government's revenues?" Glad you asked. Why yes they were! and ummm err.. yeah I guess we'll just need to raise the retail income tax higher on the individual.

But wait, those corporations ARE ALREADY PASSING THOSE TAXES ONTO US! You've got to remember that we are already paying them--just through every item you buy. You've also got to remember...who owns businesses? People do! The 23% tax takes care of all personal and business taxes period. In fact, they figure that in the first year, the FairTax would take in more than the current tax system (which to me is the only downside, I was the government to have LESS money to spend!)

"But Mr. Sales Tax Man... Do the companies also need to pay Sales Tax?" Nope! Because they buy everything wholesale!

"Mr Sales Tax Man... Can I buy things wholesale/" Well Jimmy if you ask nicely and get a business license there are certainly ways to purchase things without ever touching retail! Everybody wins... except fo the consumers who still pay their Retail taxes like they're supposed to... they get to see another Retail Tax hike... let's say 60%.

Uhh, so what is different than what's happening right now?! If I want to defraud the government by claiming my razors as a business cost, then I can do that on my taxes. However, that doesn't make that any less illegal (and would still be so under the FairTax.) The difference is, there are far less businesses in the US than tax returns. You've got to figure there is at least 100 mill tax returns each year, correct? How many businesses are there in the US? Much less than 100 million... You see, cheaters will be easier to find because there's less "returns" to go through. People cheat now on their taxes because they know there's probably only a 1 in 10,000 chance they will be caught. Those odds probably go down to 1 in 5 with the FairTax (roughly from my guessing.) Besides, who's going to use a business from to buy a pack of razors? The kind of items that people would be buying would probably be $1,000+ items, and that stands out like a sore thumb.

"But what if I want to purchase a home?" Don't worry Jimmy you get the privalege of not only paying the %60 sales tax on your home (which will be 15% cheaper) but you also have to start making interest payments on that sales tax up front in your mortage! How's that for capitalism! I Know I know before you would be taking a little bit longer on significantly less interest but it's better this way... I'm certain of it.

Buy a used house. You won't be paying any FairTax. Here's the thing once again, YOUR ALREADY PAYING IT! You just don't see the taxes. Plus, since you will be taking home 100% of your income, you will have more money to use to pay it off with. Under the FairTax I figured it up that I could pay off my loan quicker and with less interest than with the current tax system.

"But Mr. Sales Tax Man, what about those people who buy things wholesale to get around the law!" Well Jimmy we'll create another federal agency to track these people down and make sure they aren't cheating the government! We'll call it something like the Investigative Retail Section. (Not to be confused the bloated and trigger happy IRS of ages past which was terribly complicated and confusing and drove up prices by up to 20%!)

Once again, people are going to cheat no matter the system. However, with how the system is designed, states collecting the sales tax would have a VERY good chance of finding the cheater before it ever got to the federal level.

The whole point of the national sales tax was to simplify the process. But as soon as you add all the compensations for poverty and ensure it's truely "progressive" you're back to an even more confusing and ass backwards system./

I will admit that I'm not crazy about the prebate, but it's the only way to do it so it's fair. Heck, with how technology is going, in a couple of years everything should be deposited straight into your bank account each month. All it takes it a computer with an internet connection.

The income tax system might need some simplifying. (Of course I personally spend a grand total of 25 minutes every year on my taxes so I don't see how in my case that's humanely possible.) But its' 95% of the way there right now. All I see the National Sales Tax system doing is overnight radically flipping the US economy into turmoil as prices and services have to completely readjust. Our Dollar will go fluxuate for months wildly like a pendulum as people attempt to figure out what sort of exchange rate this new fangled currency is actually worth and companies are going to have to spend millions trying to figure out how much milk is worth.

First, your probably not getting back as much money as you need. Second, lucky you for obviously having a simple job with a simple income. Me, who's trying to build up a business, provide for my family, and save for the future, am punished in doing my taxes. Why are people who work hard and wise with their money punished?!

...see next post...

 

[Matthew Rogers]

You have the poor now filling out reems of paper work to tabulate how much money they get every month to compensate for their tax expenses for the upcoming month.

People are of course finding loop holes left and right to get around the system so we'll need an agency to ensure that only the poor are getting checks every month (I thought convservatives hated welfare! how is this any different than increasing the welfare check because things now cost 30 F****** percent more now.)

See this is where if you had actually read the plan, you wouldn't make yourself look a little foolish.

This is what you have to fill out (each household.) Name, address, and SS number. Your spouse's name & SS number, name and SS number of any of your kinds under 18. Wow, that was so much paperwork!

Once again, read the plan. EVERYONE (who is a US Citizen or legal resident) will receive the prebate. Myself, like many others, don't believe that it's right that anyone should have to pay taxes on the very basics (food and clothing.) That's why the prebate goes to the dirt poor and to the rich. That's fair (remember our blind justice?)

And who manages all of this income? Well we'll need another agency to oversee collection from the states and ensuring it makes it to the treasury.

Well, since the IRS will no longer be needed, they will either be downsized to the level needed to collect from the states, or eliminated and a smaller new agency will be started. I'm sorry, but you can't have a 5 person government for 400 million people, I wish it were so.

What happens when a store doesn't charge sales tax? Who enforces the collection process at the counter? I get charged 30c at some ma and pa stores for my CC purchase (which they aren't allowed to do.) I can only imagine somebody on ebay claiming an item he purchased wholesale and drop kicked is no longer new and can be sold without sales tax.

This is where the states come in. To buy something wholesale you need a business license correct? Well, when the state looks at the return at the end of each month (or quarter) they will see the discrepancy and go after the person.

And all of this with the EXPRESS POSITION of being "Tax Neutral".... if the end goal is to tax the same amount... why not just leave it the way it is!?

Well, since there are many people in our country who aren't pay ANY income taxes, but are enjoying the services we offer (roads, health care, etc.) shouldn't they be helping out? The FairTax doesn't punish you if you work hard and are successful--isn't that what America is all about?

Also, even if we switched systems to the FairTax and everything stayed the same (prices and what we were REALLY paying in taxes), would it still not be better since we would gain hundreds of thousands of man hours? Think of what we could do for our neighbors with all that time?

All I see coming out of this is effectively a flat income tax (with all the BS that goes into that.) combined with a complete exemption for companies. (oh yeah and of course Non-Profits and charities are now going to have to get a check every month for the things they buy as well since they weren't paying taxes as it was before.)

Actually, non-profits will be paying the tax. In TN they would still wouldn't be paying state sales tax, but they would still pay the FairTax. Remember, they are currently paying the tax because it's hidden in each pen/pack paper/computer they buy.

This sounds like exactly the same arguments I've heard before for cutting taxes on corporations. (For every dollar you now spend on extra taxes you save a dollar at the pump!) (Which assumes business will pass along these savings. Ha! Right! Pass along savings that's funny.)

Funny, you don't seem to see how a free market economy works. Competition will drive prices down for the most part. It's already happened once earlier this decade when a certain tax on airlines expired. Within 2 weeks, the prices had dropped the % that the tax was. Also, if you know that an item cost the company that produced it 23% less, but they didn't drop the price, are you going to buy it? The fact that all consumers will know that prices should be dropping about that much will force companies to drop their prices.

Last thing before I forget... the 23% (or 30% depending on how you look at it) we are currently paying in "hidden" taxes isn't all taxes. I don't know the exact amount, but we'll say 5% of that goes towards preparing the taxes, etc for businesses. That means that all of your "tax" money is actually GOING towards your taxes! That's one reason that many of the taxes can be eliminated, because the money is being used more efficiently.

Along with the FairTax I would love to see smaller spending and wiser spending, but that would require getting alot of fat men on both sides of the aisle out of Washington.

Thanks for reading this Gavan.

Matthew

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I will say that the FairTax or national sales tax does intrigue me. The current situation is completely unfair, total BS, etc..

I'm not super wealthy, I don't own a yacht, not sure if I'd want one anyway. But I get pissed off every quarter when I have to send in my tax payments. I don't get excited when I get a tax refund, something that hasn't happened in several years anyway. That just means I lost money that year and fell short of what the IRS was hoping to bleed out of me. Something drastic needs to be done to our current tax system so that the government, specifically the IRS, can get the hell out of the way of small business owners.

It's far too complicated to explain in such a post, and it's not really everyone's business, but I'm sick and tired of giving away 45% to 55% of every dime I earn. I would make a lot more money and not have to work nearly as hard if I just quit and went into a different industry or even just went to work for someone else and took home a normal pay check. ...Actually, I am moving my bread and butter to a different industry (filmmaking, etc..).

Personally, I really like the idea of a flat tax where everyone pays the same percentage. I know others won't agree, but that's the fair thing to do. If it's consumption based, then taxes only hit you when you buy consumer goods and services. Necessity items can be exempt (food, utilities, healthcare). Additional tax premiums can be applied to luxury items -- cars over certain $ amounts, jewelry, certain clothing items, etc..). That's just a hypothetical situation. I have yet to see one tax plan that I feel would really improve our situation.. I just know the current situation really sucks and often does more harm than good. Oh, yeah, making the tax a consumption-based part of the economy would eliminate people sending large sums of money overseas to avoid paying tax on interest income, capital gains, etc.. Let them keep their money here and let them spend it here.

Not everyone can live on the same level in a dynamic society like this. We need to accommodate those people in lower economic classes, try to give them the help they need. But I'm also someone who believes that you can only help those who want to help themselves. There's always going to be people who are poor, hungry, unemployed, etc.. No matter what services or programs are offered. In a consumption-based system it will still be the "rich" who shoulder most of the tax burden... Just instead of the government taking it right off the top. It is paid through the purchase of goods. More affluent consumers who buy expensive electronics, multiple cars, multiple homes and furnishings for those homes, yachts, airplanes, etc.. will pay their share through such a system.

Like I said, I don't care for the current plans on the table though. I think the pre-bate concept is going to do nothing more than eliminate the IRS in favor of a similar agency to handle the new tax programs and in the end won't save the american people a dime. Obviously there will need to be government administration of whatever future tax system(s) we end up with. But the current IRS situation is out of control. ...Don't get me started on inheritance or estate taxes. Granted, they're much better now than they were at one point in the past -- up to 65% for just federal tax at one point.

 

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Good points, Tom.


It is clear that Saddam had to be removed. Actually he had to be removed in the first Gulf War, but AFAIK some of the countries in the alliance vetoed this and the advance was stopped at the Iraqi border.

The US needed a broader international consensus to start the second war, and the way they did it was wrong.

Another thing that worried me was that the war in Iraq literally split the EU in half - on one side there were France, Germany, (Russia) and others, who opposed the war effort; on the other were the UK, Spain, Italy, Poland, Bulgaria and others who supported the US.

Not good... not good at all...

The ugly thing is that all the countries are driven by economic reasons and not moral or humanistic ones... it's just business that predetermines politics.

Business predetermines politics (Marxist proposition, but true), and "war is a continuation of politics by other means".

The US seek oil; France, Germany and UK had been selling WMD to Iraq. France was building nuclear plants in Iran and Iraq. Business interests... :nuke:

I remember this thought by the very successful capitalist George Soros. He said that "Capitalism and democracy are two very different things".

Communism and capitalism are equally evil in their pure form.

Communism was a pseudo-paradise, bloody nightmare, which cost millions of lives and entire countries and societies devastated [including my own :sad: ]. It would take millions of pages to try and exlain why it didn't work.

Pure capitalism on the other hand, is an exploitative, blood-sucking system, which works mainly for the business elite and is practically identical to a slave-holding society.

The truth should be in the direction of regulated capitalism. A socially aware government which should balance economic processes and relations between employers, guilds and employees.

Of course all of that should be achieved only through democratic process.

“It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.” W. Churchill

I also like another quote, but forgot who's the author. It said something like:

Democracy is like having a good form in sports, if you don't work constantly for it - you lose it...

Don't lose it.

 

[Shawn Nelson]

Fading out Social Security (and providing a stop-gap measure for the eldery who currently depend on it) would go a large way towards improving the tax situation. Every month I look at my paycheck and see the SS line, is another month I hate FDR for the clusterf* he invented. Good president? Bah! He lengthened the great depression, condemned many good Ukrainians to death at the hands of Stalin (via 'repatriotization') and irreprably harmed with nation with his programs. I can't believe my grandparents generation elected that guy 4 times...

 

[Poi Boy]

Fading out Social Security (and providing a stop-gap measure for the eldery who currently depend on it) would go a large way towards improving the tax situation. Every month I look at my paycheck and see the SS line, is another month I hate FDR for the clusterf* he invented. Good president? Bah! He lengthened the great depression, condemned many good Ukrainians to death at the hands of Stalin (via 'repatriotization') and irreprably harmed with nation with his programs. I can't believe my grandparents generation elected that guy 4 times...

I could not disagree more, he was the right man at the time. Social Security is not the root of our tax problems. what I can't believe is that W was elected twice.
-A

 

[Shawn Nelson]

you disagree that he directly enabled Stalin to kill thousands, if not millions of eastern Europeans? My friend's grandpa was killed because FDR handed him, and many other Ukrainians, back over to Stalin at the end of the war.

 

[number6]

What I can't believe is that W was elected twice.
-A

Alex, your dislike of W. has been duly noted (repeatedly). Just remember that the exact mirror of you, the Far Right, were just as full of hate for Bill Clinton when he was in office, and maybe you can better understand that sometimes you just have to let go and wait your turn.

On a happier note, thanks to Gavan and Mathew for an enlightening point/counterpoint thread. I learned something there.

 

[Poi Boy]

Alex, your dislike of W. has been duly noted (repeatedly). Just remember that the exact mirror of you, the Far Right, were just as full of hate for Bill Clinton when he was in office, and maybe you can better understand that sometimes you just have to let go and wait your turn.

On a happier note, thanks to Gavan and Mathew for an enlightening point/counterpoint thread. I learned something there.

Hi 6,
Actually I'm a centrist that has always voted the person not the party. I understand that many of you hated Bill, I wasn't thrilled with him but he certainly did not damage this country the way W has.

I too have been enjoying Gavin and Mathew.

Aloha
-A

 

[number6]

Hi 6,
Actually I'm a centrist that has always voted the person not the party.

Aloha
-A

Then we're a-hole buddies

edit: on second thought strike the above... it's a colloquialism that's not meant to be taken literally.

 

[Poi Boy]

Then we're a-hole buddies

edit: on second thought strike the above... it's a colloquialism that's not meant to be taken literally.

LOL for a minute I thought you were talking to the Hoff, I mean finner
Aloha
-A

 

[number6]

LOL for a minute I thought you were talking to the Hoff, I mean finner
Aloha
-A

Careful! He may be lurking!:shiftyph34r:

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Ahhh, you are confused by inclusive vs exclusive. Exclusively, yes, the tax would be 30% ($.77x30%=$1) However, the tax is figured INCLUSIVELY (which I admit, to me, is a little more confusing to me.) It's figured on the total amount $1 x 23% = $.23. So $.77 + $.23 = $1. I did find out that the FairTax figured the tax inclusively because that's how you are currently paying that hidden tax/tax prep fee (currently 28%-30% when figured exclusively vs 22-23% inclusively.)

Read my post. It says "30% sales tax which works out to 23% after the necessary calculations". It's still a 30% sales tax on the price of goods. Calculating backwards after taxes is incredibly difficult. Adding 30%... is mathematically easy also with things such as long term loans the added 30% is actually more damaging than a reduction in wages by 23% because of interest.

"Everybody will fill out a prebate form." Wow! So everybody will be getting a tax break. Now by how much and what for... that's up for debate... and once again you have loop holes left and right. "Ohhh I have 2 kids but I'm also blind so I need the blind person deduct...err prebate... That's EXACTLY the same as the system right now except instead of it coming out of your paycheck it's balanced out so that you spend exactly the same amount through a check. And what happens if your prebate goes missing and doesn't show up on time? What if you aren't getting all the prebate you deserve? That requires an agency to ensure everybody gets their Welfa--errrr...prebate check.

Actually, I would bet that most millionaires don't pay as much as you think. They can afford all those accountants that do tricky things with numbers and can afford to hide it away. You've got to wonder how much income those millionaires make that's not taxed at all because of offshore banks and funneling it through investments (WHICH IS GOOD FOR OUR ECONOMY!)

While I'm sure most millionaires are pretty clever I would imagine everybody in the 100,000 through 18 billion range pays more than the 24,000 -> 100,000 range as a percentage. I've experienced the transition through brackets in the past and it's quite noticeable... and I've been told by friends in the know it keeps happening.

Why would tax go up on everybody? [...] I am guessing that you don't know any rich people. All the rich people I know spend ALOT of money each year on things. Let's see, new gadgets, new houses, new furniture, new cars, new clothes, more costly food, and the list goes on. I'm betting that one of my clients probably spends 3x what I make in a year on new items and services. The rich spend money.

I do know quite a few rich people... and you they have several universal trait. They all have health care. They all save for retirement and they all invest a lot of money in the stock market. A person who lives on minimum wage (and is actually above the poverty line). Spends almost $0 on insurance of any form. Spends $0 on retirement. And spends $0 on investments. All 3 of those are untaxed by sales tax. That means the rich person gets a complete tax break on easily up to 33% of their income in investments and insurance while the minimum wage employee spends 100% of their income on retail items.

That's just one of the ways that taxes would go up on everybody. It would go up (inherently before prebates) on everybody who pays less than 23% on taxes right now. If I payed hypothetically 20% I would be seeing a 15% increase in taxes. If I were super rich and payed (I hear this from rich friends bitching all the time that this is how 'rediculous' their taxes are.) more than 35% in taxes I get a 34% tax break. But since this has to remain income neutral and the revenue just dropped by such a system by easily 50% we have to increase everybody's taxes to reach previous revenue systems. The US Government has looked into how much a National Sales Tax would have to be in order to work and they've figured it would have to be in neighborhood of 60% (before taxes) in order to be revenue neutral. THe FairTax systems says 23% because that's the national average right now for every single individual. But that's not fair because some people don't pay taxes... so Revenue/Individual/GDP doesn't work because some people are paying 0. The only way to make that work is to charge 23% to EVERYBODY (since it's a national average.) including the 0% tax people. This is all very basic math. If the average is 23% but then you apply a "progressive" cut-off for people below the poverty line. Then you've just 'cut taxes'. The Revenue has reduced. Then we see a magic price reduction in everything. (YAY! RIGHT!?) Nope. That means people are now paying (let's just go with your COMPLETELY WRONG number of 23% deflation as a result of no income tax.) All of a sudden the US Government sees a second reduction in Revenue as 30% of 23% cheaper goods is less than currently. Once again the US government either is giving out a tax break and losing revenue.

The Fair Tax.... which is code I think for 'huge tax breaks'... either has to Raise taxes dramatically above 23% over time in order to live up to its promise of "Tax Neutral" or else is a complete lie.

Oh, and by the way, the tax burden will be only as high as you spend. So if you only spend on what you need (not buying big screen TV's and stuff) then your burden will be very low. Plus, there's all the people in this country who are not reporting their income who will be taxed (illegals, crooks, etc.) The burden of the government they use will finally be shared with them.

Oh of course... the super rich illegal immigrants. They'll pay my taxes! Perfect! I'm sure that 23% taxes on the $20,000 they make will just fill the national coffers to the brim!

Again not taxing illegal immigrants is a problem but one that isn't inherently impossible to fix with the currrent system. How about by punishing the people who are hiring illegal immigrants and not paying the propper medicare/social security deductions from their paychecks.

But wait, those corporations ARE ALREADY PASSING THOSE TAXES ONTO US! You've got to remember that we are already paying them--just through every item you buy. You've also got to remember...who owns businesses? People do! The 23% tax takes care of all personal and business taxes period. In fact, they figure that in the first year, the FairTax would take in more than the current tax system (which to me is the only downside, I was the government to have LESS money to spend!)

If I were a business and I just got a tax break I would happily make more profit for my share holders. Businesses always promise to pass along the savings to the consumer and rarely do they. If I got a 10% revenue tax break I would happily pocket 10% and watch my stock soar.

Uhh, so what is different than what's happening right now?! If I want to defraud the government by claiming my razors as a business cost, then I can do that on my taxes. [...] Those odds probably go down to 1 in 5 with the FairTax (roughly from my guessing.) Besides, who's going to use a business from to buy a pack of razors?

So let me get this straight. Businesses magically save 20+% on compliance. BUT... they have to fill out forms to get all the tax breaks they get right now anyway. If Businesses can deduct razors they sure as hell are going to deduct razors and they're going to fill out the form. That's the problem with the FairTax system. It = exactly what we have now after an enormous upheaval and restructuring that results in 10 years of nobody have any idea what's going on. The destruction of the IRS and the creation of an identical organization to make sure people arne't cheating the new system. PEOPLE WILL ALWAYS CHEAT. And as a result the government will always have to spend time and money making sure they don't. Hence the IRS. The dream of the sales tax is that people won't find ways around it and won't have to fill out paperwork. But people who want to save money are going to have to fill out the same amount of paperwork and keep track of the same amount of receipts etc to prove that all of their new deductions and savings were legal.

Buy a used house. You won't be paying any FairTax. Here's the thing once again, YOUR ALREADY PAYING IT! You just don't see the taxes. Plus, since you will be taking home 100% of your income, you will have more money to use to pay it off with. Under the FairTax I figured it up that I could pay off my loan quicker and with less interest than with the current tax system.

Ok... buy a used house. "Problem solved." Less Taxes to pay. Less US Revenue. Whoops. Tax Break not Tax Neutral!

Once again, people are going to cheat no matter the system. However, with how the system is designed, states collecting the sales tax would have a VERY good chance of finding the cheater before it ever got to the federal level.

What incentive to the states have to find these cheaters? States don't give a flying trout about tracking down these cheaters. This just once again pulls of the classic libertarian. "If the states do it. It won't cost you any money!" True. It won't cost you any money at the federal level but it means the states have to raise their taxes to ensure that they're gathering the propper funds for the federal government. Which is just transfering the location of the cost not actually reducing it.

[To Be Continued...]

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I will admit that I'm not crazy about the prebate, but it's the only way to do it so it's fair. Heck, with how technology is going, in a couple of years everything should be deposited straight into your bank account each month. All it takes it a computer with an internet connection.

It's not a question of MAILING the CHECK. It's a question of how much check you get in the first place. IF computers are going to automagically calculate this prebate and send it off without being done on a case by case basis... then why dont' we just automatically calculate our income tax with such a system. Then I don't fill out any paperwork. The US Government itemizes my expenses based on my Credit Card. It knows my reported income and automatically only deducts what it costs. Businesses could be on the same automagical system and save all that money that compliance costs them right now!

First, your probably not getting back as much money as you need. Second, lucky you for obviously having a simple job with a simple income. Me, who's trying to build up a business, provide for my family, and save for the future, am punished in doing my taxes. Why are people who work hard and wise with their money punished?!

Well if by "Work hard and wise with their money" you mean. "Am doing very well financially" the answer is: Because you've been rewarded even more than you're being punished and it's your moral imperative just as it is mine to take care of those less fortunate than yourself. If it's so PUNISHING AND TERRIBLE stop making so much money go live on minimum wage. I'm sure you could cut your wages and stop being punished so much by your affluence.

I agree that the paperwork could be made easier. But that's a small fix not a complete paradigm shift inciting problem. That's making something like TurboTax for Business made easier.

See this is where if you had actually read the plan, you wouldn't make yourself look a little foolish.

This is what you have to fill out (each household.) Name, address, and SS number. Your spouse's name & SS number, name and SS number of any of your kinds under 18. Wow, that was so much paperwork!

So I'm foolish for suggesting that a monthly welfare check for every single American is going to be an administrative disaster! First off I couldn't find anywhere in the entire FairTax documentation and sales pitch that said "everybody gets a prebate". They mentioned over and over that people living below the poverty line get a prebate but mentioned nobody else. And even with a prebate how do the know everything about you?

What you just described sounds exactly like the 1040EZ Except with the addition of dependents. So we could use something like this: http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1040.pdf?portlet=3 Which really isn't all that difficult and call it the 1040EZ+D form. Income tax only gets complicated if you want to make lots and lots specific deductions... exactly the sorts of deductions that an automatic computer wouldn't add on or even necessarily know about you. EXACTLY THE SAME sort of paperwork that you're filling out now. Only instead of getting a tax refund you prebate... after the fact.. which is really a rebate, but we'll just call it a prebate for the next month since the previous month wasn't right.

Oh the joys of filling out paperwork every time you want to purchase a stapler and get the sales tax back. Completely different from deducting it at the end of the year.

Well, since the IRS will no longer be needed, they will either be downsized to the level needed to collect from the states, or eliminated and a smaller new agency will be started. I'm sorry, but you can't have a 5 person government for 400 million people, I wish it were so.

But it's not just managing the collection from states. It's ensuring that people are paying the propper taxes only now they have no idea how much you spent in taxes, how much you earned and where that money went. All they get is a giant check from the states and have no F***** clue if any individual was compliant and payed the propper sales tax or if they started buying from a wholesale discount shop. The IRS would have to stick around to also sort through all the prebate requests. The IRS would also have to stick around to manage the actual administration and calculation of the prebate to ensure dead people aren't collecting etc etc etc... It would be... exactly like the IRS except now they're investigating Sales Tax Fraud instead of Income Tax Fraud. I'm not saying there should be a 5 person government. The FairTax Crooks are the one suggesting that we won't need the IRS any more when they know full damn well that something of this magnitude requires an IRS Sized and IRS skilled organization to administer.

This is where the states come in. To buy something wholesale you need a business license correct? Well, when the state looks at the return at the end of each month (or quarter) they will see the discrepancy and go after the person.

See the previous commented Fallacy of "If the states do it, it's free." It's a fallacy of redirection. Not to mention what a nightmare it would be for the states to try and figure out how they're supposed to administer this new state program. They'll have to raise taxes to create their own agencies to investigate that. And there'll be a huge underground market of what is defined as used. And what incentive do the states even have to investigate tax fraud? None. "Let California do it, we all get the same amount of federal funding anyway!"

The Fair Tax system is another libertarian sneak attack to completely abolish the federal government one step at a time. They didn't like the idea of a federal system when they founded this country and they've been fighting tooth and nail for the last couple hundred years to overthrow it and become a loose collection of independent states defended by a national defense and diplomatic administration. It's a sneak attack on federalism in an attempt to create the confederacy they've always wanted and I for one won't stand for it. They lost several hundred years ago. And it's still a bad idea.

I'm going to propose the FREETAX system. It completely eliminates all federal revenue. Great huh! No more taxes! (fine print: The States raise their taxes by exactly the amount your saving in income tax to now fund all of their underfunded programs.)

Actually, non-profits will be paying the tax. In TN they would still wouldn't be paying state sales tax, but they would still pay the FairTax. Remember, they are currently paying the tax because it's hidden in each pen/pack paper/computer they buy.

So the price of everything drops by 23%. What stops a weeks later from the dollar depreciating by 23%? Nothing! And that's of course assuming that we only pay a 30% sales tax. (A number which the US Government disagrees as being viable.)

We're also assuming that businesses won't try to slowly reduce wages over time back to their pre-no-income-tax levels.

The whole FairTax system is a complete load of crock.

I love the idea! I would love to see it happen! But it's fundamentally based on numbers which don't add up.

This is the problem I have with Tax Cuts, The Trickle Down Effect, Fair Tax etc et etc.... it used to be that the conservatives were the level headed rationalists who said things like.

"We're going to cut taxes and social services."

Ronald Reagan started the promises game and adopted the same idiotic naivete that the liberals used to have and applied it to their position.

"We're going to cut taxes and as a result increase our spending on social services." WOW! That sounds fantastic! I'll vote for that! Stupid liberals raising taxes to do the same thing! That sounds like a Win Win! Except... over the last few decades we've found that over the long term cutting taxes only cut revenue... it didn't increase it and social services faltered.

There is this dream that has been put forward in 1000 different forms over the last 40 years that the path to helping the poor is by spending less money! "It'll be more efficient! It'll work out over a year or too to actually increase revenue! It'll bring people out of poverty." And EVERY SINGLE F****** time it drives down the quality of life for the poor. Kills social services. Cuts funding for education and career training. And I'm sick and tired of it.

If all of these programs (FairTax included) actually worked you would have to be missing an entire lobe of your brain to not want to vote for it! But the rationalists have left the Republican party. It's not driven on economic naivete that promise the sky at a reduced cost and never deliver.

I don't disagree that the FairTax system as outlined on their webpage is a positively brilliant plan and results in reduced taxes, more money for the poor, better foreign competition.

I disagree on whether it would actually work the way they say it would. This is the "Chicago Boys" all over again. The system is a complete lie with blatant libertarian alterior motives.

 

[number6]

I too have been enjoying Gavin and Mathew.

Aloha
-A

They're baaaaccckkkkkk! Grab some popcorn and settle in.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

It's far too complicated to explain in such a post, and it's not really everyone's business, but I'm sick and tired of giving away 45% to 55% of every dime I earn. I would make a lot more money and not have to work nearly as hard if I just quit and went into a different industry or even just went to work for someone else and took home a normal pay check. ...Actually, I am moving my bread and butter to a different industry (filmmaking, etc..).

It is rediculous for small business owners. Which is why I agree that taxes on small business need to be gentler and more accomodating. But if we cut taxes on the small businesses then we need to raise the taxes on the super-wealthy.

Also i'll make a side note that your 45-50% is what I hear quite a bit from business owners... which means a 23% tax... will be an enormous tax break. (And will dramatically again reduce the US Revenue.)

That money won't just magically appear in the US Treasury.

23% - Prebates != 23%

...Don't get me started on inheritance or estate taxes. Granted, they're much better now than they were at one point in the past -- up to 65% for just federal tax at one point.

This however I completely disagree on. If you earned a great deal of wealth then you benefited from it. I don't see why 40 generations of children should be able to benefit from a billionaire's wealth. He earned it. They didn't. He should be able to help out his family... but being the child of a billionaire has enough perks already. All that low taxes on estates accomplishes in the upper echelons is create a lazy aristocracy. Who can buy their way into anything they want.