Please convince me otherwise

[Jeff Kilgroe]

To be accurate, "Star Wars: The Phantom Menance" was mostly shot on 35mm anamorphic with one scene shot on an interlaced-scan 2/3" HD camera. And "Apocalypto" was shot on the Genesis mostly, which has a 35mm sensor.

I guess so. I was just whipping off films I know of that made use of 2/3" or 16mm cameras. I suppose some are not a true representation.

 

[JIM MALLON]

In the end you got to look at the footage coming out of the Epic, Red One mx and even the tiny clips of the Scarlets. Then say with a straight face Red Cameras are in the same ball park, planet, solar system in regards to just creating a pleasing cinematic image.


If you can't tell the difference then by all means buy a DSLR. I think the technical specs are missleading, even if a 5D was 3k I still think it wouldn't recreate a film look. Reds Strength in my opinion is the design of the sensors, I don't know anything tech wise, but I know what I like when I see it.

A DSLR may be a great B camera for many on a budget though.

 

[Kevin Olsen]

At least you can adapt to the larger DOF of the Scarlet by.....stepping back and zooming in. I don't know of a way to get a DLSR to shoot RAW video, variable framerates, and have professional accessories/connections simply by moving backward a bit. The advantages significantly outweigh the "disadvantages," that is if you consider a 2/3" sensor a disadvantage (hint, I don't).

KO

 

[Ash Worth]

Simple. Need a camera now or within the next year then you have no choice. DSLR. When Scarlet is released check out the footage and see if you like. But it also might compare to the 7D MK 2 which will be cheaper plus you have all the other stuff. DSLR's are hard to use, master them and become better DP.

 

[Jesper Sichlau]

I guess so. I was just whipping off films I know of that made use of 2/3" or 16mm cameras. I suppose some are not a true representation.

You forgot Avatar, though it's probably only 25-30 % film and 75-70 % animation.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Scarlet has HDRx.
HDRx is of some importance...

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?59179-1st-24-hours-with-an-Epic/page2

 

[Solomon Nero]

Scarlet has HDRx.
HDRx is of some importance...

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?59179-1st-24-hours-with-an-Epic/page2

OHHH yeah, see...I have read rumors about the new DSLRs having raw video. Sounds nice and all, but for what the scarlet will be...(well...it is even though not released yet) You cant beat REDs cinema innovations. Will DSLRs have addon modules? Will they achieve full 1080 pixel space? I dont know...I dont think so. I would prefer a scarlet just based on that it is heavily geared towards cinema...and the abilities the scarlet will have, will speak for itself. (HDRx, 120fps at 3k and so on...)

Conclusion? Skill is in the persion behind the camera. You can make DSLR footage look great, but uh...if someone who makes DSLR footage looks great, I bet you 10,000 bucks, you get that same person behind behind a scarlet, and they can make it look wayyyy better then the DSLR footage

 

[Troy Smith]

My advice is to buy a t2i or similar, and sell it for a few hundred dollar loss once scarlet is here.

Hey guys.

So after having a heated discussion with a filmmaking friend of mine who is an avid DSLR supporter, I think he might be chipping away at my Pro-Scarlet agenda (I believe in scarlet.)

His position:
-2/3rds sensor is too small and DOF is essentially lost as compared to a T2i
-Way too expensive
-Resolution means nothing.
-No computers can handle it
-I'll be waiting for years until I can feasibly get my hands on one.

My position:
-You can't compare a DSLR--a still camera with the bonus of HD video--to a DSMC--a full fledged motion stills camera.
-If I were to purchase the camera, it would basically pay for itself after the multitude of projects I would line up due to my ownership of a RED product.
-DSLR's have a very long way to go. I.e. Rolling shutter, moire, aliasing.
-I'd rather upgrade from a prosumer camcorder to a professional cinema grade camera rather than downgrade to a still camera.
-Ted was saying in a video that he loads in Epic .R3D's onto his macbook air. I have a 27" iMac with a massive HD. I think i'm ok.

I think its the wait that's killing me really. DSLR's are there and present and are tempting me (akin to the apple in the garden of eden.) I have faith in Scarlet, but I have to know--I'm correct in my position. Right?

Thanks guys.

 

[Ash Worth]

Scarlet has HDRx.
HDRx is of some importance...

Actually the most important thing is availability. He needs a camera now it's a very simple choice.

 

[AnthonyFlores]

Unfortunately, this is one argument that has been done to death, and then some. I'm not sure why I'm going to respond, but here goes...



Technically, DOF has nothing to do with sensor size -- it's a matter of focal length and aperture, at least those are the two dominant factors. Where sensor size comes into play is that on smaller sensors, you use shorter focal lengths to achieve the same relative framing. Shorter focal lengths have deeper DOF, therefore smaller sensors act as if they have deeper DOF. Funny he says DOF is lost.. Hehe, it's the other way around. It's gained. The field of acceptable focus is much deeper. When compensating focal length on a smaller sensor to approximate the same FOV as you would get at the same subject distance with a S35 or APS-C camera, the difference lies somewhere between 2 and 2.5 stops of exposure (or relational aperture diameter). But shallow DOF isn't everything, in fact it's an often over-used tool for most noob filmmakers. Nothing says "I'm a film-student wanna-be!" more than shooting constant shallow DOF via a 35mm adapter or DSLR setup. 2/3" or 16mm / S16 imager sizes are still used heavily, even for major studio productions. The Wrestler, Black Swan, Benjamin Button, Star Wars I thru 3, Apocalypto, The Hurt Locker, Jackass, The Last King of Scotland, Leaving Las Vegas, Saw, The Constant Gardener, This is Spinal Tap, and many, many more... were all shot on 2/3" or S16 or some combination of that size imager.

Scarlet, especially the fixed version with complete fly by wire control, has so many uses beyond just cinema style shooting. It's going to be the ultimate ENG / EFP camera. Just wait and see...

Price is subjective and relational to the job at hand. The Scarlet-Cinema (2/3" interchangeable) will sell for roughly $3K for the body alone. Compare that to high-end DSLRs and it doesn't seem so bad. Compared to a T2i, GH2, etc.. yes, it is more expensive, but not exactly something that would break the bank for any professional shooter needing the proper tool for a certain job. Scarlet-Fixed with the 8X zoom should be just under $6K for a ready to shoot package -- as that is what Ted and some of the other RED guys were saying at NAB when showing it. They were showing the fixed-lens body with side handle, outrigger handle, 5" LCD and side SSD module, saying that config was about $6K. How is that "way too expensive"??? I paid around $6K each for my HVX200's back in 2005~2006. Price-wise, Scarlet-Fixed falls right into the realm of those low-end HD camcorders that the indie market gobbles up. Lately, the DSLRs have really cut into that market, but the entry-level prosumer HD camcorders are still a strong market.

Resolution... To say it means nothing is a statement of ignorance. If it really meant nothing, we would all be happily watching SD 480p and going along happily about it. 3K, 4K, etc.. are just stepping stones. Even the upcoming ultra-HD 8K proposed future broadcast standard is a progressive step along the road to ???. DSLRs are mostly lacking in the resolution department because of their trade-offs of pixel binning and line skipping, which cause resolution artifacts like moire, aliasing, etc.. These are only temporary trade-offs that will soon be solved when their upcoming sensors can run at 24~30fps or more without these tricks. They also suffer from over-processing the images internally and over-compressing in lossy codecs. The latter over-processing and over-compressing will be what separates the DSLR crowd from RED for some time to come, while the resolution gap is closing. The majority of people want the internal processing because most people don't understand post-processing, RAW, etc.. Just look at the number of semi-professional and even professional photographers out there who spend big money on high-end DSLR systems and yet they still shoot JPEG stills. The HD video world is full of people who just want to dial in a pre-set look on the camera, or some subset of that, and shoot away. Better compression algorithms, like wavelet codecs, require a lot of serious CPU horsepower onboard. And even with advanced compression like wavelets and relatively small file sizes, the data rates are still huge for 3K images and larger. The RED One requires media that can sustain 50MB/s or more in order to record 4K 16:9 with audio at REDCODE 36 (9:1). Sony just released new MemoryStick media that claims to do up to 50MB/s and they act like it's the ultimate achievement.

No computer can handle it? The dude is way off base with that one. Most any current $1500 notebook PC will tear through 3K R3Ds with ease. Believe it or not, AVC / H264 / X264 take a lot more computing horsepower on a per-pixel basis than R3D wavelet does. Working with 3K R3Ds is a different story compared to working with 4K. 4K has more than 2X as many pixels to start with. But even that said, Adobe CS5.x will edit multiple streams of 4K R3D on a Macbook Pro or decent Windows notebook. And can really plow through it on a high-end workstation. Sony Vegas does quite well too.

Be waiting for years... Well, who knows. I guess whenever Scarlet shows up everyone can decide if it's worth buying or not. As of right now, this is all academic because we can't buy one. Every day that Scarlet is delayed, the DSLR cameras get one step closer. Once again, we shall see what happens when Scarlet is finally released.



Comparing DSLR with bonus HD ability to a full-fledged motion camera is pretty silly in some ways. But the DSLRs do offer a lot of abilities that you just can't get otherwise without spending a lot more money. If you want APS-C/S35 sized imager and the look that comes with it, a DSLR is the only way to do this without spending $10K or more.

Owning a RED camera isn't going to get you work. Face it, everyone owns a RED camera these days, they're dirt-cheap to rent. If you don't already have contacts and work lining up, you're not going to get more work just by owning the camera. Especially a Scarlet, which is cheap enough to almost be disposable in contrast to the rest of the pro camera market. And when it comes to jobs that are now best served by entry-level prosumer HD camcorders and DSLRs, no one is going to care if you can shoot 3K RAW. They just want their web video delivered on-time and looking 'good enough' for the web presentation or tradeshow DVD loop.

Most people spreading FUD about computers not handling R3Ds are doing just that, spreading FUD. They either have some grudge against RED, or have no personal experience and are trying to pretend they know what they're talking about. Of course, there are some who just don't know what the F they are doing and struggle with R3D workflow even on a top-end workstation, but by and large, the people with problems usually have other deeper-rooted issues. Your iMac will work OK, but ironically, the iMac is one of the worst systems out there for R3D (and H264 1080p+) workflows. Unless you have the latest model with ThunderBolt, you have the Achilles Heel of not being able to attach fast external storage. Or at least not without a hack of some sort - usually taking a secondary internal SATA port and piping it out somewhere to at least attach an eSATA unit of some sort. But even with that, you're looking at a max of 260MB/s or so. A single eSATA port can go a long way toward helping out.



Use what's available now and the tools that are appropriate to the job at hand. Scarlet will get here as soon as RED can make it happen. Trying to argue the merits of a future product against currently available tools doesn't make a whole lot of sense. As amazing as it may be, I can't choose it for any job I have in the immediate future. DSLR's have their place and as much as I love RED, I own two Panasonic GH2's and a Nikon D7000 that I use for video more than stills. For stills ant timelapse, I predominantly use a D3. RED One for most everything else, still have a occasional use for EX1 and similar. And I have an EPIC-M ordered and paid for that has been "shipping in the next few days" for the past 3+ weeks. :/

Hunter, just cut and paste this post to your friend -- end of argument.

 

[Erwin Vanderhoydonks]

What about recording time ? (Musicals, live performance,...)
DSLR, one houre non stop ?
RED Scarlet, one houre non stop ?

 

[Ketch Rossi]

What about recording time ? (Musicals, live performance,...)
DSLR, one houre non stop ?
RED Scarlet, one houre non stop ?

Recording time on Scarlet with SSD's, now up to 256GB, but I am sure higher capacity will come, will take recording times far, way far, beyond what any DSLR could ever dream..

 

[Erwin Vanderhoydonks]

Recording time on Scarlet with SSD's, now up to 256GB, but I am sure higher capacity will come, will take recording times far, way far, beyond what any DSLR could ever dream..

Thanks for this update, always looking for new information about Scarlet. And we all knew that you and Joseph Hutson had the change to hold one and play with it. give us more feedback... More...

But people told me that the max recording time on the Canon 5D was 5-7 minutes. After that the sensor was overheaded. To much noise...
I don't think this happens with Scarlet ?

 

[Deanan]

Recording time on Scarlet with SSD's, now up to 256GB, but I am sure higher capacity will come, will take recording times far, way far, beyond what any DSLR could ever dream..

Close to 3 hours on a 256GB REDmag at 3k and RC 6:1.

 

[Erwin Vanderhoydonks]

Close to 3 hours on a 256GB REDmag at 3k and RC 6:1.

arty:

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

But people told me that the max recording time on the Canon 5D was 5-7 minutes. After that the sensor was overheaded. To much noise...
I don't think this happens with Scarlet ?

That's bullshit, pure and simple. In so many ways, I barely know where to start.

First off when a DSLR overheats it stops working. First you get a little temperature icon as a heat warning, then it just shuts off.

You do get some more noise in your footage after the warning and before the shutdown... but you also won't notice it if you are under 500 ISO its very tolerable at ISO 800 and 1000. At ISO 1600 "normal noise" completely overwhelms it , so its unimportant.

How often does a DSLR overheat? I've overheated my 7d 3 times. Once on a soundstage under 20,000 watts after a 10 hour day. Twice outdoors in 100+ heat after a few hours of shooting.

DSLR's are often limited to 30 minute takes because of UK import laws I think. (If it records longer than that ... its an extra tax or something.) The Canon cameras have a practical limit of a 4GB file size. They use a VBR codec. If you shoot continuously with a lens cap on you can get to 30 minutes. Real footage though tends to run about 12 minutes.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

... I think he might be chipping away at my Pro-Scarlet agenda (I believe in scarlet.)

Why? That's dumb. Why don't you see and use a Scarlet first?

I expect great things from those cameras, but that is rather different from placing faith in them.

That's what "believing" without testing is- faith.

Now on to your friends "arguments." You've already gotten good replies, but I'll give you a short and sweet.

-2/3rds sensor is too small and DOF is essentially lost as compared to a T2i

False.

You can create the same DoF is you choose, but it takes time and fast lenses.

That said, I very much prefer to use a roughly S35 sized sensor. So I shoot DSLR right now, and I will shoot primarily Epic in the future.

-Way too expensive

Compared to what? Scarlet is very cheap.

Actors are expensive. You know you have to pay them for every day they work right?

Sets are expensive- you gotta pay whole teams of people to build them, and to tear them down! Don't forget the cost of the building materials.

Lighting crew is expensive - you gotta pay them all for putting up and taking down lights! Oh, and you have to get lights too.

It goes on. Wardrobe, insurance, feeding people etc etc.

Even a Red Epic M with a set of Master Prime lenses is cheap compared to everything else you have to spend on a film.

-Resolution means nothing.

That is completely absurd.

Of course, if you believe it, then grab yourself a Fisher Price PixelVision camera and go to town!

Your friend may be making a more reasonable argument about what you are going to do with the "extra" resolution of Scarlet or Epic.

Scarlet is really intended, like Arri's Alexa, for 2K/1080p delivery. Both cameras offer you more RAW resolution to use in delivering superior finished materials.

-No computers can handle it

Straight BS.

-I'll be waiting for years until I can feasibly get my hands on one.

I can't speak to the specific time when Scarlet will be available.

The point is that it is NOT available now.

So when are you shooting?

My advice, never wait for a camera to shoot something. If the only thing you are waiting for is the camera, then look around and shoot on whatever you already have. DSLR's are so much better than waiting.

Now, to your "points"

-You can't compare a DSLR--a still camera with the bonus of HD video--to a DSMC--a full fledged motion stills camera.

Well, yes you can compare them.

Here is my first comparison point: My Canon 7D exists right now. I have it in my hot little hands and can shoot with it at any time.

I hope you meant that statement as a shorthand for saying that you have much better technical quality with a dedicated video camera.

I would say that much is true, but I would rather shoot with my DSLR than a great number of real video cameras out there. Really on the Sony F3, Alexa, Red One MX and Red Epic are cameras I would drop my DSLR for that are available today.

-If I were to purchase the camera, it would basically pay for itself after the multitude of projects I would line up due to my ownership of a RED product.

That's non-sense.

You might be able to rent the camera out, and it will earn some of its cost back. Unless you are a rental house though you can forget getting all your costs though.

YOU won't get any extra work because you have a Red - or any other camera.

-DSLR's have a very long way to go. I.e. Rolling shutter, moire, aliasing.

So what? Do you know how many "films" were shot on MiniDV and Betacam?

I can say with 100% confidence that no one would trade today's DSLR for 1989's Betacam. The DSLR makes better pictures by far.

Go make a movie and stop worrying about top technical quality.

-I'd rather upgrade from a prosumer camcorder to a professional cinema grade camera rather than downgrade to a still camera.

Meh.

What are you doing? Shooting events or news? Then definitely shoot with your camcorder and keep waiting for the next thing.

Making "movies?" You want a system with a native S35 sensor. DSLR is a big upgrade compared to most "prosumer" camcorders with a Letus or similar.

-Ted was saying in a video that he loads in Epic .R3D's onto his macbook air. I have a 27" iMac with a massive HD. I think i'm ok.

Well sure you are OK ... but Ted is talking about "loading in" Epic footage.

Editing is another matter.

My 2010 8 core Mac Pro chokes on playback of Epic R3D footage.

Think about that.

There are plenty of great systems for processing and editing Red footage. Scarlet footage will be about as computationally intensive as Red One 3K footage, so get some of that and try it out yourself.

Its do able, but know what you are doing and test test test.

In the end Scarlet promises to be the better camera, but that doesn't mean you should pin your hopes on it and delay shooting.

My advice to most film makers, and the path I am following myself, is to get a DSLR camera and use the damn thing. You need a whole bunch of accessories to use it properly - many of which you need to use a Red Epic or a Scarlet camera.

Me? When I get my Epic I'll be keeping my 7D as a stills camera. I can keep the Epic safe at home and still have a great camera to shoot stills and video with me all the time. (Of course I also have an iPhone ...)

 

[toke lahti]

Scarlet, especially the fixed version with complete fly by wire control, has so many uses beyond just cinema style shooting. It's going to be the ultimate ENG / EFP camera. Just wait and see...

8x fixed lens will be way too limiting for most ENG work.

I just wish that red would have released MFT scarlet last year and would have taken the market over.
Sony's F3 and FS100 are now far more attractive for overall work than 2/3"fixed scarlet.
You loose raw & hdr, but 5d2 have teached that you can live with lesser technical quality, if you just know how to protect it as much as possible.
I'm just waiting for a bit cheaper b4-to-e-mount adapter than abel's current options...

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

8x fixed lens will be way too limiting for most ENG work.

Sure its bad, but not as bad as you suggest.

What you say makes me think you believe its untenable to shoot ENG work with an 8X lens. Its totally doable - just not my preference.

Before I go on, what differentiates ENG and EFP work in my mind? ENG mostly involves shooting events as they happen in real time - there is no planning opportunity and no second take. EFP is a hybrid between news and cinema work. In EFP you have time to set lights and change camera positions. Its not cinema though where you have lots of time - often you only get 1-2 takes. I don't want to write more about that here, but I know different people draw the line in different places.

Scarlet was designed as an EFP/digital cinema camera. If you use its lens, an 8x zoom is actually a fantastic zoom range for EFP and cinema. You just move the camera when you need a closer shot - and there are very few cinema or EFP situations where you can not get within range of an 8x lens.

There are a few 8x ENG lenses out there today. Mostly wide zooms. Its a usable zoom range for ENG, and freaking fantastic for EFP work.

Still, with a fixed lens I'd really want 12-20x. I know the zoom range on an XL-1 (16x) is just too little for dynamic ENG.

Here is the thing, you can get optical extenders and WA adapters. For EFP and cinema work that is a nearly perfect solution, but for the light loss in the adapter- which you are more able to compensate for when you can drop lights in place. You'll still be able to retain the full sensor resolution and have a great set of operating ranges.

You often don't have time for a lens change or to add in an adapter in ENG work though.

There is however "digital zoom". I think Red is about to change the way we think of digital zoom.

Traditionally "digital zoom" has meant in camera scaling of a center crop image. Its a huge loss of resolution.

Scarlet is a 3K 120+fps sensor though. You can crop the sensor image ~42% without losing pixel resolution when shooting for 1080p delivery. That's roughly like applying a 2.4x extender to the lens, and makes your 8x lens, into a much more usable 19x for ENG work.

If you are delivering 720p you can be more aggressive, cropping the sensor ~80%, giving an incredible 43x zoom range.

Now, those figures represent a crop of the sensor image to the HD pixel resolutions. There is some loss of resolution compared to 3 sensor ENG/EFP cameras because of the Bayer sensor pattern. FOr my purposes here let's assume you only get 80% of the actual sensor resolution.

(Read this thread for more details)

So, first off ... if you have been shooting HDV cameras, or low end AVCHD & P2 cameras, even the pixel to pixel sensor crop of Scarlet will look sharp in comparison. That's because, for various reasons, these cameras deliver far less than their stated image resolution.

Really good 1080p cameras (EX1 and newer) will do better than a pixel crop of the Scarlet's Bayer sensor. If we constrain ourselves to 80% of the theoretical available sensor resolution though, Scarlet will deliver higher resolution than modern ENG cameras deliver. So, sticking with that ... we end up with a very usable 16x zoom in 1080p mode and a still whopping 34x zoom in 720p mode.

Now, please understand that these latter "digital zoom" ranges will exceed the performance in delivered resolution of the best ENG cameras out there. Because of the Stigma of consumer "digital zoom" Red may call it something else, maybe "sensor windowing."

You can already do this on Red One, by switching to 2K or 3K modes.

The innovation I'm hoping RED delivers is to simply be able to set the sensor "window" dynamically during a take via the zoom controls on the camera. I'd be willing to take a bump on frame rate in order to free up processing for that. If I can still shoot 60fps I'm happy when in "ENG Mode."

I'm just waiting for a bit cheaper b4-to-e-mount adapter than abel's current options...

Because of the nature of the adapter, they are always going to be expensive. You not only have to correct for sensor coverage, but also for converting a lens image designed for 3CCD sensors to a flat plane for a single flat sensor. Not easy, and certainly not cheap!

 

[Lorenzo Straight]

Buy a DSLR now. Make some cash with it. Buy Scarlet when it comes out. Simple. What DSLR is gonna give you Raw motion files?