Pixel Corps Presentation

[Ryan Patch]

Alex Lindsey from Pixel Corps just came to my school (NYU) to do a presentation on the usability of the RED for greenscreen work, based on tests that Pixel Corps and ILM did with the camera. Thought that I'd pass this on.

He said that they were originally concerned about the data rate (something that should be about 1G a sec is compressed to 27MB a sec) and the rolling shutter causing a rolling frame.

He said that in the critical tests, they found that there was no visible video compression, and the rolling shutter did not cause a rolling frame, as expected.

He also showed us some very, very nice greenscreen work done with 1-click keylight in shake. We looked at the alpha matte that it generated and it was phenomenal.

Something else that he talked about that was interesting, was 4K resolution. He commented that 4K, although the gold standard for final, film-print output, is probably not needed for most applications if you are not printing back to film, and 4K over 2K just increases your overhead for storage space, processing power, and media management. I know that most filmmakers won't heed this advice because they want their masterpiece in 4K for when AFI comes callling to add their commercially unappreciated oeuvre to the museum, but perhaps it'll save someone some money.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Oversampling rocks hard

Oversampling rocks hard

Thanks for the report. One quibble (not with you but with the presenter): OK, I get the issue of efficient use of resources, particularly storage space, in the choice to work at 4K. But right in your post it is noted that the RedCodeRAW .r3d files are roughly 28/MB sec which is smaller than one 4K DPX frame.

I will continue to spend the overhead of working in 4K until final mastering and here's why: All digital representations suffer from a certain amount of coarseness versus analog media, its the nature of binary systems. By starting with a richer data set the subtle color and density characteristics of the image are reproduced in a more natural way. IF the RedOne is to function as a genuine film replacement (heretics vs true believers cage match can start now) then it needs the advantage of oversampling in the mix.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

The best way to make the best 2k is from 4k.

Graeme

 

[Craig Bowman]

I saw the early greenscreen tests with the fine wiremesh baskets. Up until then I was gambling that Red would be the perfect solution for vfx work and made my reservation. Those tests absolutely nailed it.

 

[Paul Lee]

Ryan,
'when AFI comes callling to add their commercially unappreciated oeuvre to the museum' I'm still laughing about that one!
While we have yet to take delivery of cameras, the tests we have done so far indicate that unless you need to do off-speed shooting, just use 4K all the time. Making 2K or 1080p media from the 4K source is really no big deal and the image looks awesome. Plus, you can reframe all day long. Down-sampling is good. And with REDcode data rates, who cares about overhead?

PS- http://web.mac.com/paulee303/iWeb/student_film/student_film.html

 

[Clayton Harper]

Originally, I think the dude meant posting in 4k is a problem as opposed to acquiring in 4K and posting at a lesser res.

 

[Greg M]

The best way to make the best 2k is from 4k.

Graeme

This is something we have been experimenting with. Would we be better off using Red Cine to output 2K DPX files (for editorial in a Smoke 2K suite) or Export 4K DPX from Red Cine and resize them in our Smoke Suite down to 2K?

 

[Graeme Nattress]

All depends on the quality of the downsampling filters used, and if you want to use the 4k for zooming in or stabilisation, or if you have greater constraints on disc space. It's a complex question with no right answer.

Graeme

 

[Nils Ruinet]

What about 2k scaled in-camera ?

Graeme, I know it's not done yet (hopefully soon :whistling: ) but how do you think it will compare to shooting 4k and doing the conversion in post ?

If it is similar enough, shooting 2K (scaled) could become an interesting option for a lot of projects, especially documentary work where you need to shoot a lot, and also projects where you know you'll "only" finish in HD...

Nils.

 

[MalcomXB]

The best way to make the best 2k is from 4k.

Graeme

this is totally true

X

 

[Bob Rudis]

In camera Scaling 2k, even 1080p

In camera Scaling 2k, even 1080p

Red would be smart to develop exceptionally high quality in-camera scaling, and do it quickly. For many people in-camera scaling is the holy grail. We appreciate the 35mm aesthetic (24fps, depth of field, field of view, focus behavior (no floating focus pulls), the shapes of out of focus sources. These have become the visual language of cinema in both conscious and subconscious ways. We continue to effort to achieve it digitally with the advent of 24p cameras, need I mention the pro 35 adapter' raging success. As a Director of photography/equipment owner, I want to offer all options to producers, but the thing I hate to give up is these 35mm aesthetic choices.

For many of us, producers dictate the acquisition format based on editorial criteria... which deck the editor owned factored into which video camera we would shoot with. In the future, server space may indeed impact the resolution we choose for acquisition.

For some projects 2k will be plenty. Today, most digital inter-negatives are scanned at 2k then printed back to film for distribution and it looks really good.

I’m all for 4k but other realities may dictate our choices from time to time. So when the producer wants 2k, I still want to shoot with 35mm lenses. Bring on in camera scaling… Please

 

[Noah Posnick]

Damn! I was signed up to go to this, but because of some final essays I couldn't. Wish I had been there. Which room was this in? Was it the one in the basement? What format were they projecting in? Just curious what you were actually seeing since some of those tisch projectors aren't accurate at all in terms of color/contrast.

 

[feb31films]

Red would be smart to develop exceptionally high quality in-camera scaling, and do it quickly...
For many of us, producers dictate the acquisition format based on editorial criteria... which deck the editor owned factored into which video camera we would shoot with. In the future, server space may indeed impact the resolution we choose for acquisition.

This concern doesn't hold water with me, precisely because you will be shooting with RED ONE. Red has already given us RedCine, so why would down conversion "in camera" be necessary? If the editor in question has RedCine (or the future version of FCP that supports native Redcode), then just deliver them a hard drive with the 4K files and let him/her convert to whatever rez they need. If they DON'T have RedCine, then your .r3d files will be useless to them anyway, so you are stuck doing the conversion yourself to the desired format & frame size of the editor. Shooters for hire are going to have to think different (to steal a phrase from Apple) about acquisition. You will no longer be tethered to a tape format so "which deck the editor owns" becomes immaterial. Many are used to shooting and just handing the master tapes over to the producer, but I doubt you'll want to hand a producer your RedDrive or RedFlash - that will get expensive! Shooters will have to become responsible for down/cross conversion.

Acquire once (in 4K) and deliver everywhere in any format. That's the RED philosophy.

 

[Nils Ruinet]

Red would be smart to develop exceptionally high quality in-camera scaling, and do it quickly. For many people in-camera scaling is the holy grail. We appreciate the 35mm aesthetic (24fps, depth of field, field of view, focus behavior (no floating focus pulls), the shapes of out of focus sources. These have become the visual language of cinema in both conscious and subconscious ways. We continue to effort to achieve it digitally with the advent of 24p cameras, need I mention the pro 35 adapter' raging success. As a Director of photography/equipment owner, I want to offer all options to producers, but the thing I hate to give up is these 35mm aesthetic choices.

For many of us, producers dictate the acquisition format based on editorial criteria... which deck the editor owned factored into which video camera we would shoot with. In the future, server space may indeed impact the resolution we choose for acquisition.

For some projects 2k will be plenty. Today, most digital inter-negatives are scanned at 2k then printed back to film for distribution and it looks really good.

I’m all for 4k but other realities may dictate our choices from time to time. So when the producer wants 2k, I still want to shoot with 35mm lenses. Bring on in camera scaling… Please

That's exactly my opinion.
2K scaled may be enough for most TV work.
We need 2K scaled !! :whistling:

This concern doesn't hold water with me, precisely because you will be shooting with RED ONE. Red has already given us RedCine, so why would down conversion "in camera" be necessary? ...

Well for a few reasons :
- 2K scaled requires 4 times less bandwidth, so you can record 4 times more footage on the same media. If you're on a feature film, with a big crew, this won't matter, but if you're more in a "run'n'gun" situation, with a small crew, and need longer recording times, then this option will be critical.
- You may be able to use slower recording media (CF, SSD, etc...) which will be available for a lower price, and in higher capacities than 4K certified medias. For example, no 16GB CF card has been approved yet by Red for 4K, but I think you could find 32GB cards that would work for 2K... 32GB should provide for at least 1 hour of 2K footage ! Think about that, compared to the 4-5 minutes you get on your 8GB CF card in 4K...
- Processing times in Redcine should be much shorter from a 2K source, than from a 4K source. Once again, this doesn't matter if you have time and/or not a big amount of footage to convert, but what about documentary film, where you often end up with dozens of hours of footage ?

So here is my point :
Of course, when I have the budget/crew/time/storage space that allows it I will be shooting 4K.
But I also know there will be situations where I won't be able to handle 4K, but still would like to use Red for all its other great features (Fantastic quality, RAW format, dynamic range, 35mm DOF, lenses, etc...). That's when 2K scaled would become very handy.

Nils.