Picked up a Tamron SP 24-70 VC this morning

[Curtis Stanton]

Took advantage of Samy's no tax sale and picked up a Tamron SP 24-70 F/2.8 VC USD this morning. They had two downtown yesterday afternoon, but by this morning they had sold them both; I had to go to the Pasadena store to find one. Tried the lens in the store and was able to adjust the aperture through the Scarlet just fine. So, it's a useable lens even though it has not been characterized by RED. I thought I might have to use it as a manual focus lens until it was characterized/programmed (whatever) by RED, but the auto focus seems to work pretty well; I'm going to have to play with it some more to really get a feel for it.


There are a number of tests online now (http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/04/quick-tamron-24-70-mtf-data) but, I did a few quick tests focusing manually. My impressions of this particular lens are:

• Holds focus pretty well through zoom range
• Image stability is good, but there is some image shift during zoom
• There is a slight focus shift when reversing zoom direction
• Resolution is about average for this type of still lens
• You have to choose between resolution and contrast at the long end
• There's some slight flair on the left side

The performance overall seems above average for a still lens. It's heavier than you'd expect – seems sturdy and well built. With image stabilization, a six year warranty (vs Canon's one year warranty) and at over $1,000 less than the delayed Canon, it seems like a good deal. I have 15 days to return it, but so far, so good.

Curtis

 

[stu aull]

Thanks for the report Curtis. IS? ni-i-i-ice. Even newer version Canon does not seem to offer this. Would be nice to have a side-by-side even against the current v1 Canon 24-70 (which sounds like they are about the same price, used, as your tamron is new?). Figured it was pretty well the v1 Canon as the only affordable option, but if as you say the auto-focus is working correctly then maybe I will have a look....


Stu Aull
Alaska

 

[Paramon Ivanovich]

Hey Curtis,
some handheld ISd sample footage would be awesome,
when you'll get a chance,
thx!

 

[Les C.]

There are some handheld tests of the Tamron in this post.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...-24-70-with-IS&p=998051&viewfull=1#post998051

The thread is devoted to a comparison between the new Canon and the Tamron, so there are some other interesting posts.

Really wish could see how it compares to the new Canon - or if the new Canon will ever get released (pushed back from April 17th to 'late summer' according to CanonRumors.

 

[stu aull]

Thanks Les- I realize you have been pushing for info on this lens for a while now. And NOW I can see why.

Well - went Googling on this lens after reading about it here. Not as much info for the motion-based crowd in the various DSLR tests but all the ones I looked at were hands-on comparisons to the _current_ Canon 24-70 and the Tamron did OK in most areas , that is: comparable, optically - it gives up some in some areas, better in others (obv some of this is subjective!). But resoundingly, every one was VERY complimentary about the VC tech of this lens! (VC= Vibration Compensation - Tamron speak for IS). The bit of DSLR video shot to demo the effect was impressive. And that may be where the Rubber Meets the Road for folks like us. New lens at 1/2 the cost of soon-to-be-released (and still non IS) Canon 24-70, WITH IS.

Here is a bit of what I have found:
The Good:
$1299 full retail, so....$$?? About $1000 less than projected $ of v2 Canon
VC to 3 stops
Stands up to most, exceeds some, optical performance of _current_ Canon 24-70
appears to hand shake with Scarlet/RED electronics: AF and IS (would like to hear more details from users)

The Not-so Good:
Not the same quality of materials as Canon. More plastic components. Eg: front filter thread mount is plastic, not metal
Canon AF quicker responding (on DSLR Canon)
82mm filter size (if your lens set is all 77mm right now...)
Canon overall optical performance may be better, at least at some focal lengths/iris.
Current new-stock Canon v1 24-70 about the same price.
Its not a Canon

Really looking forward to more user-info from Curtis!

Stu Aull
SX-199
Alaska

 

[Les C.]

You might want to check if the Tamron still works after 3.2.8.

Phil Holland reported several of his 'uncharacterized' lenses no longer worked with the new build.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...-Build-3-2-8&p=1005216&viewfull=1#post1005216

It's a bit disturbing that using non-characterized lenses may fail in later builds.

If Canon tried to market their new cameras without 3rd party lens support, would they still be as popular?

Hopefully RED can read the lens info from the lens' chip (just as Canon does) for lenses that the firmware has no knowledge of and give basic functionality?

That would seem to be part of the essence of a 'Canon mount', that it would function like a mount on a Canon camera and read the chip data.

A characterized lens should always function better in terms of auto-focus (just as the Canon lenses seem to always beet the 3rd party auto-focus speeds on Canon cameras).

But, I'd hope that any users who might at one point wish to use a lens that RED has not characterized (and apparently, that happens a lot), will let RED know of their concerns.

BTW - be sure to read this post to successfully install 3.2.8

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...-Build-3-2-8&p=1005512&viewfull=1#post1005512

The download links are in the 1st post of the thread

 

[Curtis Stanton]

You might want to check if the Tamron still works after 3.2.8.

Installed 3.2.8 last night. Played with it in my living room a little last night and again this morning before I set out for more thorough run through. Both aperture and focus work with 3.2.8.

Got a little chill this morning when I accidentally set focus to "continuous" instead of "single." The continuous focus mode seems to use a completely different algorithm. It's very smooth and quick, and seems to be very accurate. But, the great thing is it doesn't do the hunt routine that the single mode goes through for even the most minor focus adjustment.

This was just a very quick check to make certain everything was functioning before I set out. I'll definitely be testing continuous auto focus further.

The one function that doesn't seem to be working is VC (Vibration Control: Tamron's term for IS.) This definitely takes some of the shine off. It could be one of three things:

1. VC is more lens specific than aperture and focus. This is entirely possible since Tamron has reversed the magnets and springs in this lens to reduce the size.
2. Faulty lens: can't test this since I don't have another Canon camera.
3. Operator screw-up: very possible, but what could be more simple than on/off and hold down shutter release?

At any rate, I'm not seeing the level of motion dampening that is evident in some of the You Tube lens tests.

Additional Notes:

• The Tamron only has VC on or off. The Canon has IS mode 1 that compensates for motion in all directions and mode 2 that compensates for vertical motion only.
• The Canon USM focus can be manually adjusted while in auto focus mode. The Tamron USD focus cannot (should not) be manually focused while in auto focus mode. (Oops. But apparently no damage done.)
• The Tamron doesn't have an infrared index on the focal distance scale. (I've never used the IR index anyway.)

I'm surely forgetting something, but I have to get going.

Curtis

Edit:
After further testing, I have second thoughts about the continuous auto focus mode. It seems to work in some situations, e.g. near subject, pan along wall to far subject. In other situations it's not usable: moving subject and variation in background cause focus pulsing.

 

[Les C.]

That point about Canon's ability to be manually focused while in auto-focus mode is very useful - as well as the VC info.

Thanks!!!

 

[stu aull]

Hey Curtis - continued THANKS for your ongoing updates on the Tamron!!
Happy to hear the basic focus/iris ops made the jump to 3.2.8
But the VC failure is distressing, as it would ultimately be the ONLY reason I would get this over a used v1 Canon.
Trying to think why it would not work on the RED. Did it EVER (ie, on previous Build)? maybe throw it on a DSLR and see if that tells anything.
I would think that since the VC is an internal mechanism, it wouldn't matter WHAT camera it was attached to!?

Sorry to hear manual-focus mode hassle. We gets what we pays for eh?

Look forward to any more info Curtis!

Stu Aull
SX 199
Alaska

 

[Curtis Stanton]

. . . .
But the VC failure is distressing, as it would ultimately be the ONLY reason I would get this over a used v1 Canon.
Trying to think why it would not work on the RED. Did it EVER (ie, on previous Build)?
. . . .

Stu Aull
SX 199
Alaska

I'm only guessing, but the stabilization is activated by holding down the shutter release. If the Epic/Scarlet shutter release is not characterized to activate a particular type of stabilization mechanism it wouldn't work. Since the Canon stabilization is also activated through the shutter release, it may be that there are differences in the way the stabilization routine is addressed. Since the Canon and Tamron stabilization mechanics are different, it's probably not surprising that it doesn't work. As I said, I'm just guessing here. I haven't eliminated any of the three possibilities that I suggested in my previous post.

On a side note, I did mention the VC issue a couple days ago to my bomb squad rep, who passed it along to his tech squad, etc. I probably won't hear any more about it from RED; so we have no way of knowing if or when RED cameras will be programmed for this lens until it's a done deal and appears in a build somewhere down the road.

No, I did not see noticeable motion dampening in build 3.0.6. And, I re-emphasize that I don't know why. It could be specific to this particular lens. I'll test it some more. (Twelve days left to return it.)

Curtis

 

[stu aull]

Thanks Curtis- will keep checking back. Will be interested to see if you keep the lens.

Re:VC
So you are saying even the canon lenses require the shutter depressed to activate IS? I just bought a canon 70-200 IS and while I haven't played with it much, I am surprised this has never been mentioned by users. Would be a real PITA to have to hold the shutter half-depressed while shooting! Or are you saying the tamron _specifies_ you must depress the shutter to activate VC??

Stu Aull
Alaska

 

[Curtis Stanton]

Thanks Curtis- will keep checking back. Will be interested to see if you keep the lens.

Re:VC
So you are saying even the canon lenses require the shutter depressed to activate IS? I just bought a canon 70-200 IS and while I haven't played with it much, I am surprised this has never been mentioned by users. Would be a real PITA to have to hold the shutter half-depressed while shooting! Or are you saying the tamron _specifies_ you must depress the shutter to activate VC??

Stu Aull
Alaska

The attached thumbnails are from pages 8 and 10 of the Canon 70-200 L II manual.

The info sheet (as opposed to a manual) that comes with the Tamron 24-70 states:

"When VC is ON, immediately after the shutter button is pushed halfway down and approximately 2 seconds after a finger releases the shutter button, the camera will "click." This sound is the VC's locking mechanism activating, not a malfunction."

In addition to not seeing motion dampening, I haven't heard the "click," but it could be masked by the Scarlet fan.

This is the source and total extent of my knowledge concerning the activation of IS in both the Tamron and Canon lenses. Remember, these are still lenses. I suppose RED could modify the IS start and stop process, but I haven't heard anything in that regard.

Curtis

 

[stu aull]

Ahhhh. Interesting. Have NEVER heard anyone speak of the IS function operating for such a brief period here. Makes the whole IS-for-motion prospects rather grim then. Its not like they "couldn't" be operational all the time. They are in pro-video (as opposed to maybe pro-fessional) cameras on a full-time basis. So maybe the RED folks have figured a way to keep IS active then? Maybe a note to Tech Support might shed some light....

Thanks Curtis. So did you try v3.2.8? If so did the AF make the transition on the Tamron?
-appreciate the follow-ups!!

Stu Aull
Alaska

 

[Miles Heckendorn]

So you are saying even the canon lenses require the shutter depressed to activate IS? I just bought a canon 70-200 IS .....

I'm not sure about the Tamron but the Canon should work fine.

-Here is a list of Canon lenses that have been programed into the mount/ Epic Brain. These still need to be characterized for fine-tuned autofocus as they all have different motor speeds etc., but they are and will be functional out of the gate when the Canon mount ships.

Image Stabilization is functional on the entire stabilized lens lineup.

.........Canon EF 70-200/2.8L IS USM
Canon EF 70-200/2.8L IS II USM

From this thread.....

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...you-wanted-to-know-about-the-EPIC-Canon-Mount

 

[stu aull]

Thanks Miles-
That is what I thought too. My Canons all run IS continuously.

Curtis - will be curious to see if/how the Tamron works with 3.2.8

Stu Aull
SX 199
Alaska

 

[Curtis Stanton]

Curtis - will be curious to see if/how the Tamron works with 3.2.8Stu AullSX 199Alaska

Yes, as I mentioned in a previous post, the Tamron aperture and focus functions made the jump to 3.2.8.

Trying to evaluate a new lens while getting used to a new camera is probably a questionable enterprise at best; I'm not entirely convinced that there's not something fundamental that I'm overlooking or doing wrong. This is particularly true in regard to stabilization since the Scarlet has not been programmed for this lens, but my concern extends to other aspects of image quality that are effected by everything from capture to RAW post production.

OK, with that disclaimer off my chest – back to the lens. I was eager to try this lens. My enthusiasm has waned – considerably. I'm now leaning maybe 70/30 toward returning it; here's why:

The big question is when or if RED will characterize this lens for the Scarlet and Epic. There are several issues ranging from niggling to major that this would resolve:

• Auto focus seems to bring the image itself into critical focus, but the focal distance values displayed on screen are way off and seem to progress in reverse of the actual distance as the image is brought into focus. (When focusing on a near object and then a far object, the far object registers as being closer.)
• Auto focus sometimes takes two or three tries to find focus.
• Auto focus very occasionally takes an inordinately long time to find focus. Edit: to be fair, these focusing quirks occur in low light in which the Canon 70-200 L II sometimes will not focus. But, the Canon has never stalled during the focusing process. If theses issues can be corrected by characterization the Tamron might focus better in low light than the Canon.
• I still haven't gotten the IS to work to my satisfaction. I've tried holding down the record button, pressing and releasing the record button. to test for dampening I've tried moderate camera motion and small camera vibrations. Nothing appears to me to result in dampened motion. With the cross-hairs centered on a vertical line, even the smallest motion is evident. (I guess this goes beyond niggling.)
• If the lens were characterized we wouldn't have to worry about the aperture and auto focus not working after a firmware upgrade. If the aperture stopped working, the lens would be useless. (This would be beyond major or hors categorie as they say in cycling.)
  • I tried the lens in the store before I bought it. I thought if it worked then it would always work. I didn't realize until later that, since it was uncharacterized, a firmware upgrade could render functions non-functional.

Funky issues:

• The lens barrel extends externally to achieve longer focal lengths. It would be better if it didn't, but, by itself, the extension is not a deal breaker for me. The problem is that Tamron says the lens can extend on its own when you're carrying it with the lens pointed down. To counter this the lens has a focal length lock that you can engage at 24mm. Another hassle for an issue that I haven't experienced with Canon lenses.
  • In addition to that, the info sheet says the lens can extend on its own when pointed down at an acute angle while shooting. And, it may retract if pointed up at an extreme angle. It seems tight enough now that that couldn't happen, but it sounds like it could be a possibility after the lens has broken in. Who wants to deal with that while hanging over a ledge or trying to capture a bird about to take flight from a tree limb overhead?
• The Tamron lens cannot be focused manually while in auto focus mode without risking mechanical damage to the lens.
• The filter size is 80mm as opposed to the more common 77mm.
• The Tamron only has IS (or VC) on/off as opposed to Canon's on/off and mode 1 and mode 2 that, respectively, dampen all motion or vertical motion only. Since I haven't seen any motion dampening with the Tamron, I don't know if this is significant when panning or not.

I think I covered most of the positives in my first post, but they are now on the lighter side of the scale so I won't go over them again here.

Curtis

 

[stu aull]

Thanks Curtis!

Obv ANY non-characterized lens is at the whim and mercy of our cameras until RED makes it right. And as far as I know these "characterizations" are not announced - tho you can certainly ask Support and they will tell you. Case-in-point for me was my buying a new Sigma 70-200 IS lens. No IS function on Scarlet.
THEN I checked with RED - sure enough - outta luck. So sold at a loss, bought a used Canon. Well, 3 weeks later a new "approved" list pops up and guess what lens is now Good To Go? Yep - my long-gone Siggy. Well bugger.

My point is perhaps, other issues not withstanding, you have nothing to lose with the Tamron even now if (!?) RED supports the VC function later. Its still 1/2 the price of a comparable (new) Canon. Which looks like it is NEVER going to have IS in this focal-length. I think its safe to say that at SOME point VC will be supported...?

As to the "droopy" zoom-extention issue, I have various Canons that suffer from that (tho NOT a 24-70), so maybe no guarantees?

Now the no-manual with autofocus engaged DOES suck. no question. How many times will you grab the barrel to force-focus before you cook the motors?

We will stay tuned....

Stu Aull
Alaska

 

[Les C.]

If a Canon camera from years ago can read the info from the chip for a Tamron, which they had no direct knowledge of at the time the camera's firmware was designed, then I'd expect the fine engineers at RED could perform the same magic if they desired.

Had a report of a Sigma lens that worked for iris but didn't autofocus properly (went thru the motions of AF, but didn't end up in focus).

So, after RED resolves more important issues (I'm sure they have their hands full bringing us an ever expanding feature set), maybe they can re-examine their support for non-characterized lenses.

Just having working iris support is enough to get by for now, but with every build, things just keep getting better - so I'm ever hopeful!!!