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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Philosophy change...

Mark Toia said:
Your the king of hype, (take that as an awesome compliment.). But the RED hype 4-5 years ago actually turned into the real deal.
Hype that sells product long term. Hype that makes people stop, hold there money and wait for you... Hype that creates an builds a brand quicker than expected..., Hype other people subconsciously help sell for you.. Hype you don't have to pay for... it's free.
Click to expand...

Yes, hype was necessary when all RED had was hype. But now it has shipping products that speak louder than words.

Also, you don't think it hurt anyone that Scarlet was announced in November, 2008 as a $3,000 camera to ship in 2009? Do you think that those who based buying decisions on that were happy about it?

Comparing future products to already shipping products is never a good idea. Besides, if RED's upcoming products kill sales of competitors, then what stops them from killing sales of existing RED products?

Again, this was all great and fine when RED didn't yet have products. Today, when Epic finally ships, I'm not sure if the best message to send around would be, "If you like what we're selling today, you'll be blown away by what we'll be selling in two years..."

It's not that everyone will be in the dark about what RED is up to. Epic and Scarlet brains are (or will very soon be) shipping. If you buy into either technology now, you'll be able to upgrade later. You'll be able to swap a brain. And you can be pretty sure that the next Epic brain will be going up, not down, in specs. And if you want any more details than that: I don't think you were getting that before either. Details, schedules and specs changed so wildly that few sensible people were making any buying decisions on those announcements.

And it's not that Jim announced that from now on, RED will turn into a bunch of idiots (such a feat would be theoretically impossible anyway). If the company thinks that the market needs to hear a message, that message will be delivered and heard.
 
Jannard said:
Up 'til now, we have said what we are "going to do".

As of now, that has changed (we promised that everything is subject to change... including our strategy).

We will only announce new things when they are done and ready to ship. That includes Scarlet and all other new products and accessories.

We used to go by "always late but worth the wait". That will no longer be the case because we won't telegraph what we are planning anymore. There will be no possibility of us being late. No more "we expect this to be done by..."

From now on it will only be "Here is is and we are ready to ship".

Jim
Click to expand...

Excellent news!!!

Actually I was waiting for something like this pretty long.

Also in a near future when RED will ship sensor upgrades for Epic, then new cameras with RED Dragon sensor, new ProRes module and new HDRx variant 2

it will be really a day when RED new cameras finally distance themselves from all the competition.
 
I am enjoying my down time and beginning to realize the benefits in having time now to do the things that bring me the most pleasure, and spending more time on reduser has been one of those added bonuses. I am an outsider now with the unique advantage of an insider's view. Here is my take on Jim's announcement:

RED's not trying to be anyone else, not Apple, not Arri, not anybody. RED is RED. This is a company evolving and adopting a philosophy that is sound business, nothing more. The transparency in the beginning was industry shaking; the whole forum concept, revolutionary for any company in our industry. It has been copied and attempts have been made to emulate the model, but no one does it as well as Jim. It is undeniable that it was brilliant marketing, creating excitement for product that didn't even exist; it created a brand and a buzz that any company in the world would die for. All without a penny spent on advertising or promotion. There was the practical side to it; create an exchange of ideas between manufacturer and customer that could only make the product better, reflecting the needs of the user. The ultimate products made by users for users. But there was more to it than just that. It was personal. It was the telegraphed excitement from a man that was a user, just like all of you, that stood on the precipice of knowing what was in the works, technology and product that would change the world. Jim is like a kid in that way, so excited to share what he knew that he couldn't help himself from giving the world a peak into his crystal ball. Jim, often times, was the hardest one to keep a secret. He wants to share his excitement with you, his passion for the ultimate camera trumped by no one.

I think that it's a mistake for anyone to view this announcement in the context of a change in that transparency. There will be no fewer RECON posts. Every notion, every thought that Jim has, will continue to be expressed. Feedback is the cornerstone of RED's model and will always be encouraged and nurtured. Don't expect any fewer exchanges on what RED is thinking about or tossing around; it's your dialog that fosters the greatness in this company. The exchange has been, and will always be, critical to the product that is developed and brought to market. I heartily expect the discussion to be more, not less. And if I know Jim, it's going to be the hardest thing in the world for him not to leak a tease here and there :)

What will be different is that the expectation of new product, which puts RED in the constant state of defense, will be minimized. No one likes to disappoint. The complexities of bringing revolutionary technology to the world at affordable prices is a formidable task. No success can be achieved without failure. Contrary to popular belief, Jim and Jarred are not aliens. They are flesh and blood humans, and they, along with the RED Team, work day and night to make this miracle that is RED happen. Taking the pressure off of this great company to pull rabbits out of a hat will make the company stronger. Product will be ready when its ready. No disappointments.

For anyone concerned that not knowing the roadmap will force them elsewhere, I say this: There is good product everywhere and there are a variety of tools out there for many applications, but there is no other company that you can hang your hat on that will have your back and stay as true to you, the customer, as RED. Buying RED is buying into a family, it is buying into protection from having to buy a new camera for every generation of advance. And most importantly, it is buying into a legacy, cameras designed by persons passionate about the art of cinematography and photography. Those persons reside at the studio in Hollywood, the manufacturing site in Irvine and on the pages of this forum.
 
Well the benefit of being a benevolent dictator is the ability to listen to counsel, then decide how to act on his own. Jim DOES listen and understands very well. But the din on this forum can sometimes (usually?) be mindless chatter from around the globe. That's got to be annoying at times, especially when each of us are telling him how to run his company. RED is the most transparent company I've ever been associated with and I don't think they'll throw the baby out with the bathwater by keeping things closer to the vest. They've already had what appears to be corporate espionage (or what appears to me) on a couple of occasions that I recall. I would have clamped down long ago if it were my company. They're trying to please the masses, but they'll never please all, and shouldn't try to, i.e. RED declaring to be a professional camera company.

NAB and similar conventions are goofy in the sense they take every competitor and throw them in the same building so they can photograph and make copious notes about what the other guy is showing. Why not just leave the front door unlocked of an evening when you turn out the lights? Frankly, I'm glad they are becoming more closed mouth about new developments. They're no longer telegraphing on the battlefield what will be their next move. Who on earth does that? Idiots, that's who.
 
Jon Sagud said:
I am enjoying my down time and beginning to realize the benefits in having time now to do the things that bring me the most pleasure, and spending more time on reduser has been one of those added bonuses. I am an outsider now with the unique advantage of an insider's view. Here is my take on Jim's announcement:

RED's not trying to be anyone else, not Apple, not Arri, not anybody. RED is RED. This is a company evolving and adopting a philosophy that is sound business, nothing more. The transparency in the beginning was industry shaking; the whole forum concept, revolutionary for any company in our industry. It has been copied and attempts have been made to emulate the model, but no one does it as well as Jim. It is undeniable that it was brilliant marketing, creating excitement for product that didn't even exist; it created a brand and a buzz that any company in the world would die for. All without a penny spent on advertising or promotion. There was the practical side to it; create an exchange of ideas between manufacturer and customer that could only make the product better, reflecting the needs of the user. The ultimate products made by users for users. But there was more to it than just that. It was personal. It was the telegraphed excitement from a man that was a user, just like all of you, that stood on the precipice of knowing what was in the works, technology and product that would change the world. Jim is like a kid in that way, so excited to share what he knew that he couldn't help himself from giving the world a peak into his crystal ball. Jim, often times, was the hardest one to keep a secret. He wants to share his excitement with you, his passion for the ultimate camera trumped by no one.

I think that it's a mistake for anyone to view this announcement in the context of a change in that transparency. There will be no fewer RECON posts. Every notion, every thought that Jim has, will continue to be expressed. Feedback is the cornerstone of RED's model and will always be encouraged and nurtured. Don't expect any fewer exchanges on what RED is thinking about or tossing around; it's your dialog that fosters the greatness in this company. The exchange has been, and will always be, critical to the product that is developed and brought to market. I heartily expect the discussion to be more, not less. And if I know Jim, it's going to be the hardest thing in the world for him not to leak a tease here and there :)

What will be different is that the expectation of new product, which puts RED in the constant state of defense, will be minimized. No one likes to disappoint. The complexities of bringing revolutionary technology to the world at affordable prices is a formidable task. No success can be achieved without failure. Contrary to popular belief, Jim and Jarred are not aliens. They are flesh and blood humans, and they, along with the RED Team, work day and night to make this miracle that is RED happen. Taking the pressure off of this great company to pull rabbits out of a hat will make the company stronger. Product will be ready when its ready. No disappointments.

For anyone concerned that not knowing the roadmap will force them elsewhere, I say this: There is good product everywhere and there are a variety of tools out there for many applications, but there is no other company that you can hang your hat on that will have your back and stay as true to you, the customer, as RED. Buying RED is buying into a family, it is buying into protection from having to buy a new camera for every generation of advance. And most importantly, it is buying into a legacy, cameras designed by persons passionate about the art of cinematography and photography. Those persons reside at the studio in Hollywood, the manufacturing site in Irvine and on the pages of this forum.
Click to expand...

Awesome. Well said.
 
Philosophy

Philosophy

Just say I did buy a 5k Alexa (only because we don't know about REDs next move) Say I have already spent all my money and cannot afford to dump all those newly acquired tools to go buy a new 8K EPIC... So your silence becomes non beneficial for long term planners such as myself and 100 other people I know... We don't know its coming, we don't budget or plan or get excited for it...
Click to expand...

A+++++ . Your new philosophy may be an advantage for the competitor....Even if they know about your future plans I dont think they can derail those...What has been Alexa able to do to the RED or EPIC market.....

We should be able to know by some means what your future products are ...maybe at least 6 months before they release.....
We love RED as it is......no 'apple's for us.
Harcharan
 
Jon Sagud said:
I am enjoying my down time and beginning to realize the benefits in having time now to do the things that bring me the most pleasure, and spending more time on reduser has been one of those added bonuses. I am an outsider now with the unique advantage of an insider's view. Here is my take on Jim's announcement:

RED's not trying to be anyone else, not Apple, not Arri, not anybody. RED is RED. This is a company evolving and adopting a philosophy that is sound business, nothing more. The transparency in the beginning was industry shaking; the whole forum concept, revolutionary for any company in our industry. It has been copied and attempts have been made to emulate the model, but no one does it as well as Jim. It is undeniable that it was brilliant marketing, creating excitement for product that didn't even exist; it created a brand and a buzz that any company in the world would die for. All without a penny spent on advertising or promotion. There was the practical side to it; create an exchange of ideas between manufacturer and customer that could only make the product better, reflecting the needs of the user. The ultimate products made by users for users. But there was more to it than just that. It was personal. It was the telegraphed excitement from a man that was a user, just like all of you, that stood on the precipice of knowing what was in the works, technology and product that would change the world. Jim is like a kid in that way, so excited to share what he knew that he couldn't help himself from giving the world a peak into his crystal ball. Jim, often times, was the hardest one to keep a secret. He wants to share his excitement with you, his passion for the ultimate camera trumped by no one.

I think that it's a mistake for anyone to view this announcement in the context of a change in that transparency. There will be no fewer RECON posts. Every notion, every thought that Jim has, will continue to be expressed. Feedback is the cornerstone of RED's model and will always be encouraged and nurtured. Don't expect any fewer exchanges on what RED is thinking about or tossing around; it's your dialog that fosters the greatness in this company. The exchange has been, and will always be, critical to the product that is developed and brought to market. I heartily expect the discussion to be more, not less. And if I know Jim, it's going to be the hardest thing in the world for him not to leak a tease here and there :)

What will be different is that the expectation of new product, which puts RED in the constant state of defense, will be minimized. No one likes to disappoint. The complexities of bringing revolutionary technology to the world at affordable prices is a formidable task. No success can be achieved without failure. Contrary to popular belief, Jim and Jarred are not aliens. They are flesh and blood humans, and they, along with the RED Team, work day and night to make this miracle that is RED happen. Taking the pressure off of this great company to pull rabbits out of a hat will make the company stronger. Product will be ready when its ready. No disappointments.

For anyone concerned that not knowing the roadmap will force them elsewhere, I say this: There is good product everywhere and there are a variety of tools out there for many applications, but there is no other company that you can hang your hat on that will have your back and stay as true to you, the customer, as RED. Buying RED is buying into a family, it is buying into protection from having to buy a new camera for every generation of advance. And most importantly, it is buying into a legacy, cameras designed by persons passionate about the art of cinematography and photography. Those persons reside at the studio in Hollywood, the manufacturing site in Irvine and on the pages of this forum.
Click to expand...

Thanks Jon.. :)
 
1st off... I'll still be here.

With so much coming fairly soon, you'll get a constant stream of "pay attention tonight" posts. Instead of hearing what we are going to do, you'll be getting a constant stream of what is ready now. I will still give general roadmap hints, but they will not be as detailed as before.

If we see that our customers will need to make a decision on some emerging product, we'll help. But there is a delicate dance here. If we give you (and our competitors) all the info too soon, we are likely to be late and have helped the industry keep up with us. I'm not going to do that anymore. If we give too little info, the speculation kills us because some post that they expect us to take them to the moon and back for $20.

The solution is to surprise you early with a constant stream of great things that are ready to go.

Jim
 
Jim, Thanks for the clarity. I'm planning to get the Scarlet fixed, but for my friends that are planning to get the Epic-S, is that still happening? It's just that it wasn't on your road map earlier.

Thanks.
 
I can see both sides. Jon Sagud just made a lot of sense. Mark Toia has captured some of what I feel. But everything evolves and changes to some degree, including RED.

Big tech companies like Intel and IBM make a point of putting roadmaps of their future plans on the table so their customers can predict and have some confidence in where the tech they've bought into is going. But they're largely predictable, following Moore's law and a price/performance curve that can be projected.

RED is different. RED is as constrained by Moore's law as everyone else, but the resemblance stops there; RED is innovative and disruptive to an extreme. I'm sure they're working on stuff that the competition hasn't even considered to be *possible*, and that's where keeping things close to their chests in the early stages is most important, I think. That's where it's appropriate for Jim to confine himself to the general 'If you knew what we were working on you would be gobsmacked' type of post we've heard recently.

But when it comes to putting a shipping product together... well, would Scarlet be what it is (or is about to be!) without the input from people here? It's a fair way from the original concept, and better for it. It would be great if RED could find a way to capitalize on our input without it causing problems, or hassle with forum-whiners. 'Visionary' is usually superior to 'designed by committee' but there's still a place for user input. Maybe this will come as RED matures and is able to accelerate the product development cycle and simply outpace the competition so much that what appears in public here isn't useful to the competition any more.

Bottom line: I trust Jim, I buy into Jim's vision and so do most/all of us, or we wouldn't be here. Anyone who has Jim's track record in business... well who here does? The rest of us are just opening our mouths and letting our bellies rumble. Let's hang on tight and see where this ride takes us.

Mike
 
Makes perfect sense, Sell what you have today...

It was exciting peaking into the development cycle while it lasted...

Congrats on the Epic-X launch!
 
Mark Toia said:
Sorry for the long winded email..

Look.. I'll say what a majority of us are thinking. (I've had many off forum conversations regarding this thread today)

Jim, Ok, I muck around on this forum a little bit... , but hear me out please...
Also don't take offence, this response is sincere, respectful and polite.

I don't like this "Share nothing anymore" idea of yours Jim. Also this is the first time I've disagreed with anything you've done. Your straight shooting openness is what draws me to your company.

Your the king of hype, (take that as an awesome compliment.). But the RED hype 4-5 years ago actually turned into the real deal.
Hype that sells product long term. Hype that makes people stop, hold there money and wait for you... Hype that creates an builds a brand quicker than expected..., Hype other people subconsciously help sell for you.. Hype you don't have to pay for... it's free.

Trying to turn yourself into a mini APPLE and keeping everything close to your chest and not sharing anything with your long term customers is not good. Especially when you've been feeding us solid for the last 4 years your progress.

I really don't think this will work for you or us long term. We as a group are hi end camera consumers, we are not the same as Iphone, ipad purchasers. We buy those apple products because they are cool and cheap and disposable.... EPICS are not. 80% of your customers cannot afford an EPIC without planning for it....

We (I) want and need to know whats coming so we can plan for it. If I don't no its coming, I wont plan for it, wont get excited for it.... we wont talk about it with another 1000 possible consumers, we wont do anything because we don't know what's coming or going on... and probably won't buy then because we have bought something else... because we didnt know what was actually coming.

So for example a 8k SONY or a 5K Alexa comes out... Say we end up buying that. (don't respond to this bit) why?.. because we don't know if REDs next camera is coming or not... or what its capable of, what specs it has?? . We are in the dark as customers so we don't wait 12 months like we have in the past.

Hypothetical: Just say I did buy a 5k Alexa (only because we don't know about REDs next move) Say I have already spent all my money and cannot afford to dump all those newly acquired tools to go buy a new 8K EPIC... So your silence becomes non beneficial for long term planners such as myself and 100 other people I know... We don't know its coming, we don't budget or plan or get excited for it...

Everything you and your team have told us about early we have waited for and thats a FACT, first time in history I've seen this happen... People pay and wait for a year or more... Only RED could have pulled this off with the HYPE you have created.
Why because the RED information vehicle is strong and ever apparent. This is why alot of us love the RED brand and products. So powerful was this type of online marketing and forward thinking that we all held funds aside for your promised camera, left deposits and eventually purchased...
Even though you may have been late due to manufacturing and tech hold ups, the fact is we waited because we new it was coming. So your sharing worked. Stop the sharing of dilevery dates and up incoming products and the consumer will do the same... stop... It's just natural human behaviour.

Big ideas, great tools are worth the wait, (if you know its coming) You sharing nothing, then we don't get excited, we don't share the hype for you, nothing is built up, hype, hysteria, rumours, what ever you want to call it is very healthy for any company.

Sorry Jim. I humbly disagree with your thinking... but understand why.

But hey, It's your company and you at the end of the day knows whats best for you.

I'm only sharing my sincere thoughts.
Please don't respond defensively, This is not an attack of your better judgement. It's only a customer sharing his thoughts to his supplier..

Best regards :)
Click to expand...

Thanks Big T. I agree wholeheartedly. Perhaps there's a middle ground so the folks at RED don't burn out. But this openness has been enormously helpful.
 
Jon Sagud said:
Jim is like a kid in that way, so excited to share what he knew that he couldn't help himself from giving the world a peak into his crystal ball. Jim, often times, was the hardest one to keep a secret. He wants to share his excitement with you, his passion for the ultimate camera trumped by no one.
Click to expand...

I get the feeling that Jannard started this company just so he could make the cinema camera he always wanted. In how many successful, large companies is that the case? He just seems to make stuff he (and his team) wants, so whatever he decides to do in the future is bound to work out for me as well.
 
Without reading every page of the thread I only really see one negative to this. Otherwise it's brilliant and will do wonders for there plans and roadmap.

That one con being that I think the communication and personal feel with the potential customers will seem to be nearly gone to me. I know Jim and Jarred and the rest of RED will be here listening and communicating with currently released product customers and discussions. And be watching what potential customers will be saying...But I fear that the already minimal communication on that front is pretty much going to dwindle. Which is something that made RED a very very enjoyable company to follow. You lose just a little bit of that personal touch reading what the company is excited about.

But it is an absolutely understandable approach.

The good is obvious, it keeps customers happier rather than feeling like the "here we go again" feel. It will prevent others on the outside that don't support RED from talking about how everything is Vaporware and will never come out. In the end it's the best approach, and we all know the support will continue to be the same. As soon as the camera's and gear they release hit the ground running the excitement and communication will be there, it will just come at a later point in time for the customers still waiting to get the products they're waiting for.

I really see this as a bigger positive, just putting my con thought out there. I really think this is only like 10%. The positives 90%. The positives for me greatly outweigh the negatives. Good for RED I still look forward to owning a RED camera someday in the future. Hopefully a Scarlet and hopefully soon! Thanks Jim and Jarred and RED team for all your hard work and dedication to the industry we all know and love. Your a welcomed change that brightened our future and in the future are even giving us on the lower end of the market to excel and push our work to new heights.
 
Jannard said:
1st off... I'll still be here.

With so much coming fairly soon, you'll get a constant stream of "pay attention tonight" posts. Instead of hearing what we are going to do, you'll be getting a constant stream of what is ready now. I will still give general roadmap hints, but they will not be as detailed as before.

If we see that our customers will need to make a decision on some emerging product, we'll help. But there is a delicate dance here. If we give you (and our competitors) all the info too soon, we are likely to be late and have helped the industry keep up with us. I'm not going to do that anymore. If we give too little info, the speculation kills us because some post that they expect us to take them to the moon and back for $20.

The solution is to surprise you early with a constant stream of great things that are ready to go.

Jim
Click to expand...

Excellent... thanks for listening as always, Jim.

Congrats on Epic-X. Nothing short of awesome.

-sc
 
I agree 100% with what Mark Toia said a few posts earlier but at the end of the day it is Jim's decision so we have to play along.

All good things come to an end sooner or later. Just send me my Epic-X to sooth the pain! :D
 
Jim, I humbly ask you, instead of announcing "check here tonight." (we all check here all the time anyway) you do a webcast video of the product releases with demos. Twitter can act as a great Question and Answer tool.

If you need a Technical Director to come down and switch the show, I'm all game for it! My day job is Technical Directing and Cinematography for a fortune 100 company.
 
As we all know, JIm is passionate about what he does, his is not simply a business enterprise, nor does he depend on a board driven by opportunistic non practitioners. He, like us in our film endeavors, lives this stuff. So, I'll take this announcement with a pinch of salt. Jim is not going to turn the lights off, maybe just dim them a little.
 
I'd have thought that at least Scarlet news would be exempt given the length of time the cheese has been dangled in front of us mice.

To retreat into silence on the subject seems to break faith for a company that lauds loyalty and a love of visual imaging over profits and the traditional company/customer status quo.
 
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